JBP grown from seed. Good start but where to from here

Thanks, Oso!

Yes, I was totally wrong about the 10cm measurement for Japan! Lol!!!

And, yes, Smoke knows them!

A bit more about Shonin...

As us old guys get older, it's harder and harder to pick up the big trees and pots of the big Imperial Masterpiece trees. Smaller trees are far easier to pick up and mess with. So, Shohin have long been an old man's game.

But, a single Shohin, as perfect as it may be, just doesn't have the the visual elements a big tree has. There's just not enough to look at to hold anyone's attention for as long as a full sized bonsai.

So, they invented "Shohin box stands" as a way to fill as much space, vertically and horizontally as a big bonsai. Then they added the "rules", such as no two varieties should be the same in the display. Well, let me take that back! There are no rules! At least, no agreed upon, universally accepted, written, undisputed, rules. Except maybe the size (height) rule. And, old men, being old men, like to show off their little treasures, like fancy Shohin stands and jittas. And fancy little pots.

So, Shohin and Shohin display grew to more than just having small trees. It became a "game within a game" so to speak.

Now I didn't understand all this at first. Heck, I just thought "Shohin" meant its a small tree. But as I learned more (and I'm still learning) I found there are all these nuances that make it continually interesting and challenging.
 
Adair M said:
Thanks, Oso!

Yes, I was totally wrong about the 10cm measurement for Japan! Lol!!!

And, yes, Smoke knows them!

A bit more about Shonin...

As us old guys get older, it's harder and harder to pick up the big trees and pots of the big Imperial Masterpiece trees. Smaller trees are far easier to pick up and mess with. So, Shohin have long been an old man's game.

But, a single Shohin, as perfect as it may be, just doesn't have the the visual elements a big tree has. There's just not enough to look at to hold anyone's attention for as long as a full sized bonsai.

So, they invented "Shohin box stands" as a way to fill as much space, vertically and horizontally as a big bonsai. Then they added the "rules", such as no two varieties should be the same in the display. Well, let me take that back! There are no rules! At least, no agreed upon, universally accepted, written, undisputed, rules. Except maybe the size (height) rule. And, old men, being old men, like to show off their little treasures, like fancy Shohin stands and jittas. And fancy little pots.

So, Shohin and Shohin display grew to more than just having small trees. It became a "game within a game" so to speak.

Now I didn't understand all this at first. Heck, I just thought "Shohin" meant its a small tree. But as I learned more (and I'm still learning) I found there are all these nuances that make it continually interesting and challenging.
Click to expand...
Maybe one day I will learn about rules but for now I just enjoy growing trees. Thanks for being so patience at explaining all the rules.
Don't mean to hijack Dorian post but since this is a JBP thread, why do you need to use tweezer to pull needles when what you want is adventitious buds? Taking a long time to do it.
 
I question the reasons behind putting a tree you are trying to fatten up into a fast draining colander. If you want to fatten it up, put it into a black nursery pot and feed and water heavily. Trees that are growing get thirsty and having your tree dry out removes its ability to take in nutrients.

I'd be leaving the side branch which looks vigourous to help beef up your trunk.

I've found that heavy bending of the trunk in the early years helps the trunk crack and fissure and when it heals it fattens up. I guess it's like going to the gym and doing weights. You tear your muscles and when it heals over you get bigger.

I live in Australia and this is what works for me.

I'll get flamed but there was a quote about bonsai that I got told too - it goes something like this "if you have a choice between a tree that conforms to bonsai rules verse a tree that looks natural, go for nature". What trees in nature follows rules?
 
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0soyoung said:
I always forget these things, so just for reference

Shohin - under 25 cm (10 inches) tall
Mame - under 10 cm (4 inches) tall

There is also a limit on the horizontal dimension but rarely does one see a grape vine, for example, in a mame pot that presses those limits. Perhaps @Smoke knows.
Click to expand...

I have a stick I made. It is 30 inches long and divided by the individual sizes of trees. I can stand it next to the tree and find its classification very quickly. Shohin is 20 cm or 8 inches.

DSC_00030001.JPG

The smallest Keishi is about 1 inch tall.

DSC_00040002.JPG

Shito to 3 inches
Mame to 6 inches
Shohin to 8 inches
Kifu to 16 inches
Chuin to 24 inches
After that Dai or two man size.

DSC_00050003.JPG
 
namnhi said:
Maybe one day I will learn about rules but for now I just enjoy growing trees. Thanks for being so patience at explaining all the rules.
Don't mean to hijack Dorian post but since this is a JBP thread, why do you need to use tweezer to pull needles when what you want is adventitious buds? Taking a long time to do it.
Click to expand...
Adventitious buds are the ones at the nodes. Pulling needles do not damage them because they're not found at the base of a pair of needles. They're found at the base of spring candles. They're stimulated to grow when the spring candles are removed by decandling. (Cutting off the spring growth.)

Needle buds are found growing between each pair of needles. Compared to regular spring buds (candles) and adventitious buds that lie at the base of spring candles, needle buds are extremely weak, and unreliable. They may or may not be stimulated to grow. And even if they do grow, they're so weak you have to leave than alone for about 2 years before you mess with them. Or else you can easily damage them.

Once a tree is in the refinement stage, and we decanfle every year, the internodes are so short we get so many adventurous buds to grow, we don't even care whether needle buds pop. In the early stages of training, a tree that pops out with lots of needle bud growth makes it easier to begin refinement and keep foliage close to the trunk.

So, on a reasonably refined tree, we pull old needles. And pretty much destroy the needle buds in the process. It does clean up the tree, and opens up the foliage so that sunlight can penetrate to the interior. There are old dormant adventitious buds at the old nodes. And often, once stimulated by sunlight, they'll pop. If so, they will be far more vigorous than needle buds.
 
Daluke said:
I question the reasons behind putting a tree you are trying to fatten up into a fast draining colander. If you want to fatten it up, put it into a black nursery pot and feed and water heavily. Trees that are growing get thirsty and having your tree dry out removes its ability to take in nutrients.

I'd be leaving the side branch which looks vigourous to help beef up your trunk.

I've found that heavy bending of the trunk in the early years helps the trunk crack and fissure and when it heals it fattens up. I guess it's like going to the gym and doing weights. You tear your muscles and when it heals over you get bigger.

I live in Australia and this is what works for me.

I'll get flamed but there was a quote about bonsai that I got told too - it goes something like this "if you have a choice between a tree that conforms to bonsai rules verse a tree that looks natural, go for nature". What trees in nature follows rules?
Click to expand...

Many things in bonsai are contradictory on the surface. John Naka is often quoted as saying, "Don't style a tree to look like a bonsai. Style a tree to look like a tree". And yet his textbook "Bonsai Techniques" has the most complete and precise list of rules ever documented!

As I said, learn the rules first. Then if you choose to break them or relax them, then you can.

I have seen too many people choose to ignore the rules, they get to a certain point, and they stagnate.

Piccaso learned to draw and paint in the classical style long before he started doing the cubism.
 
Adair M said:
Many things in bonsai are contradictory on the surface. John Naka is often quoted as saying, "Don't style a tree to look like a bonsai. Style a tree to look like a tree". And yet his textbook "Bonsai Techniques" has the most complete and precise list of rules ever documented!

As I said, learn the rules first. Then if you choose to break them or relax them, then you can.

I have seen too many people choose to ignore the rules, they get to a certain point, and they stagnate.

Piccaso learned to draw and paint in the classical style long before he started doing the cubism.
Click to expand...

Fair points! Some good material in here.
 
Adair M said:
Adventitious buds are the ones at the nodes. Pulling needles do not damage them because they're not found at the base of a pair of needles. They're found at the base of spring candles. They're stimulated to grow when the spring candles are removed by decandling. (Cutting off the spring growth.)

Needle buds are found growing between each pair of needles. Compared to regular spring buds (candles) and adventitious buds that lie at the base of spring candles, needle buds are extremely weak, and unreliable. They may or may not be stimulated to grow. And even if they do grow, they're so weak you have to leave than alone for about 2 years before you mess with them. Or else you can easily damage them.

Once a tree is in the refinement stage, and we decanfle every year, the internodes are so short we get so many adventurous buds to grow, we don't even care whether needle buds pop. In the early stages of training, a tree that pops out with lots of needle bud growth makes it easier to begin refinement and keep foliage close to the trunk.

So, on a reasonably refined tree, we pull old needles. And pretty much destroy the needle buds in the process. It does clean up the tree, and opens up the foliage so that sunlight can penetrate to the interior. There are old dormant adventitious buds at the old nodes. And often, once stimulated by sunlight, they'll pop. If so, they will be far more vigorous than needle buds.
Click to expand...
Adair,
Perhaps I wasn't clear on the question. I was quite aware of the adventitious buds are much more stronger than needle buds. What I want to know is why when pulling the needles, many pros using the tweezers and pulling the needle one pair at a time. That takes hours for the big tree when you could just using the hands which speed thing up considerably. I can see that if one are not careful with the hand and pulling the needle in the wrong direction... that could tear the skin of the branch. If you pulling in the same direction as the needle there is very slim chance that could happen. So what is the reason for the tweezers?
 
Last edited:
@namnhi ,

It might be more profitable to ask Sifu, if you use that needle pulling technique, how do you stop the tree
from expanding.

By the way we cut above the brown sheath [ fascile ? ] and let the needle part left fall off naturally
in a week. I was teased about it on Bonsai Study Group, but no one said it was wrong or a problem.

By the way what we observed was our stronger dose of sunlight brought out more adventitious
buds in really odd places.

Also ask how the treatment changes when the design is set.

A lot of that needle pulling gets rid of the old needle look.
Good Day
Anthony
 
namnhi said:
Adair,
Perhaps I wasn't clear on the question. I was quite aware of the adventitious buds are much more stronger than needle buds. What I want to know is why when pulling the needles, many pros using the tweezers and pulling the needle one pair at a time. That takes hours for the big tree when you could just using the hands which speed thing up considerably. I can see that if one are not careful with the hand and pulling the needle in the wrong direction... that could tear the skin of the branch. If you pulling in the same direction as the needle there is very slim chance that could happen. So what is the reason for the tweezers?
Click to expand...
Ok, so yes, needle pulling with tweezers is tedious and time consuming. Agreed!

The actual technique is to grab each pair of needles close to the base. Including the sheath. Bend the base of the needles back towards the trunk, which effectively breaks their connection with the twig, and finally pull them off the twig by pulling the direction they were growing. This produces the least amount of damage to the twig.

This removed the needles and the sheath, leaving a smooth, clean branch.

Pulling them off by hand, gets rid of the needles, but usually leaves the sheaths, and sometimes little broken pieces of needle behind. It is much faster!

The next step after needle pulling is also "bud thinning". Or "excess shoot removal". Assuming the tree had been decandled the previous summer, many times there will be more than two new summer candles from each location where we had decandled. These need to be thinned to two.

Beginners should pull needles, then eliminate the excess shoots. Experts can do it all at once! They hold a pair of scissors in one hand for cutting excess shoots, and a pair of tweezers in the other for pulling needles! That way, as they work their way around the tree, they only have to visit each area only once.

I'm working on my own technique to speed this process up: using three pairs of tweezers!

IMG_3971.JPG

Now that the needles and sheaths are removed it's MUCH easier to wire! If pulled by hand and the sheaths are still there, wiring over the sheath looks messy.

I attempt to apply the very best techniques to my bonsai. These are more time consuming, somewhat tedious, exacting, and precise. But I am trying to produce the best, highest quality bonsai that I am capable of. If there were shortcuts that produced the same results, of course, I'd do them! But there's not.

The "attention to detail" is one of the things that separates the quality of the bonsai we have here in the US vs the Bonsai produced in Japan. You can talk about "naturalistic vs highly refined" all you want, but what I tend to see holding our bonsai back is sloppy work. I hear people say "it's not pretty, but it gets the job done" all the time. Uh... bonsai is art! It's supposed to be "pretty"! Even trees in training shouldn't be sloppy. Sure, they're not show worthy, but they deserve quality work. Quality work is more effective, and doesnt have to be corrected later.

Pat Parelli, the famous horse trainer, has an expression he uses when talking about training horses that I believe applies to bonsai, too:

"Take the time it takes, so that it takes less time".
 
Anthony,

I pull JBP needles, not cut them. Using the technique described above, there's little damage.

JWP, are a different matter. They're more fragile. And those I do cut the needles off very short. They'll die off and fall off.
 
Adair M said:
Ok, so yes, needle pulling with tweezers is tedious and time consuming. Agreed!

The actual technique is to grab each pair of needles close to the base. Including the sheath. Bend the base of the needles back towards the trunk, which effectively breaks their connection with the twig, and finally pull them off the twig by pulling the direction they were growing. This produces the least amount of damage to the twig.

This removed the needles and the sheath, leaving a smooth, clean branch.

Pulling them off by hand, gets rid of the needles, but usually leaves the sheaths, and sometimes little broken pieces of needle behind. It is much faster!

The next step after needle pulling is also "bud thinning". Or "excess shoot removal". Assuming the tree had been decandled the previous summer, many times there will be more than two new summer candles from each location where we had decandled. These need to be thinned to two.

Beginners should pull needles, then eliminate the excess shoots. Experts can do it all at once! They hold a pair of scissors in one hand for cutting excess shoots, and a pair of tweezers in the other for pulling needles! That way, as they work their way around the tree, they only have to visit each area only once.

I'm working on my own technique to speed this process up: using three pairs of tweezers!

View attachment 119117

Now that the needles and sheaths are removed it's MUCH easier to wire! If pulled by hand and the sheaths are still there, wiring over the sheath looks messy.

I attempt to apply the very best techniques to my bonsai. These are more time consuming, somewhat tedious, exacting, and precise. But I am trying to produce the best, highest quality bonsai that I am capable of. If there were shortcuts that produced the same results, of course, I'd do them! But there's not.

The "attention to detail" is one of the things that separates the quality of the bonsai we have here in the US vs the Bonsai produced in Japan. You can talk about "naturalistic vs highly refined" all you want, but what I tend to see holding our bonsai back is sloppy work. I hear people say "it's not pretty, but it gets the job done" all the time. Uh... bonsai is art! It's supposed to be "pretty"! Even trees in training shouldn't be sloppy. Sure, they're not show worthy, but they deserve quality work. Quality work is more effective, and doesnt have to be corrected later.

Pat Parelli, the famous horse trainer, has an expression he uses when talking about training horses that I believe applies to bonsai, too:

"Take the time it takes, so that it takes less time".
Click to expand...
Look at him go in the picture! A flurry of activity in one still shot! Adair is one intense looking individual.
 
Sifu,

we cut because there is less resin flow, and can if we wished to wire, do so later. If you wish to speak of
working intensely, Then we make sure Health is preserved before Design.
Plus we can also - grow and clip - which I know you don't believe in, but for us it works.

We have learnt, that the radial roots will occur naturally, that buds will pop up with sunlight and feeding,
how to branch and sub branch, and keep a tree lush using a simple soil mix .
As I mentioned to you we just need to explore when to cut the candles for needle reduction.
June / July gives the tree too much time to get stronger.
So next year we shift to August / September.

We can also back branch so the tree stays in the design for a while.

It is better for us to do a normal repot, as the tree likes it fine and returns quickly to lush.

So we should not have to graft for a long time, if ever.
Soon the trees from seed will be over 30 years of age.

A great deal of the above also came from you ----------- thank you!!!
Good Day
Anthony

* Even the Honduran / Caribbean pine is responding ----- again -------- thank you.
 
Earlier Adair said that aluminum wasn't strong enough for the job of really putting curves and twists in. He's right about this tree but if you start young enough, aluminum is plenty strong.
 

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