JBP - Is there any hope?

Clicio

Omono
Messages
1,260
Reaction score
2,244
Location
São Paulo, Brazil
USDA Zone
11a
Hi, all.
Got this young leggy Black Pine from a friend (already wired...) and my hope is chopping the main trunk below the reverse taper and let it grow free to thicken the trunk.
Is there any hope for this as a future bonsai, or should I forget about it?

5F17E83F-3643-44B6-94B6-539EA8FC20D7.jpeg
 

0soyoung

Imperial Masterpiece
Messages
6,462
Reaction score
10,470
Location
Anacortes, WA (AHS heat zone 1)
USDA Zone
8b
Of course there is hope unless you are not up to the task.

My first thought is you got your money's worth of wire - lol.
My second thought is to use the straight trunk as a sacrifice to thicken the trunk below the first branch.
My third thought is 'gawd, I hope for a back bud to pop on that low test branch'
My forth though is 'what if that doesn't happen?'
My fifth thought is 'that is several years from now - plenty of time to think about those further options'

So, my final thought is 'take the wire off the present trunk in the next year or so; make sure nothing shades the foliage on the lowest branch and let's see what happens over the next few years.' If nothing else, it can be used to learn grafting. One might take some of that other foliage on the 'trunk' and try to graft onto the lowest branch, closer to the trunk - maybe elsewhere lower on the trunk.

Alternatively one could very likely bend the entire tree up in knots. Maybe see what you can do this year or next rather than just doing the obvious.

It is going to be a few years, so find another tree that interests you - one in which you see the future bonsai from the beginning (as opposed to buying a tree and then wondering how it becomes a bonsai, which you did this time).
 
Last edited:

Clicio

Omono
Messages
1,260
Reaction score
2,244
Location
São Paulo, Brazil
USDA Zone
11a
My second thought is to use the straight trunk as a sacrifice to thicken the trunk below the first branch.
My third thought is 'gawd, I hope for a back bud to pop on that low test branch'
First of all, thank you for your useful response. Yes, I could surely do that and wait a few years, but I doubt this lower branch will backbud someday. let's see.

Alternatively one could very likely bend the entire tree up in knots.
Not my option, I think. Don't want to see this tree looking like a mallsai! ;)
 

Clicio

Omono
Messages
1,260
Reaction score
2,244
Location
São Paulo, Brazil
USDA Zone
11a
My third thought is 'gawd, I hope for a back bud to pop on that low test branch'
My forth though is 'what if that doesn't happen?'
UPDATE : Following @0soyoung advice, I found this small backbud in the lower branch, close to the "main trunk".

Which means, I guess, patience and sun! :)

Backbud.jpg
 

Anthony

Imperial Masterpiece
Messages
6,265
Reaction score
8,129
Location
West Indies [ Caribbean ]
USDA Zone
13
You can take off the wire and practice grafting on another plant.
Then graft leaves/branches where you want.
You can also free grow and see where more shoots will show.
Good Day
Anthony
 

sorce

Nonsense Rascal
Messages
26,070
Reaction score
34,699
Location
Berwyn, Il
USDA Zone
6.2
More than hope.

That other side's needle got a bud too!

That base has a great flare there.

Only HOPE if PE is the new RTICULTURE.

Sorce
 

Leo in N E Illinois

Imperial Masterpiece
Messages
7,677
Reaction score
14,061
Location
on the IL-WI border, a mile from ''da Lake''
USDA Zone
5b
@Clicio
The tree is young, all the obvious flaws can be fixed, most likely in less than a decade.

Reverse taper, even as a shohin, if it were mine I would try to get the trunk to double or triple it's current diameter. When increasing the trunk diameter is part of the plan, reverse taper can be corrected, it is a process, but it is usually correctable by controlling (limiting) growth in that zone, and encouraging growth below the zone of reverse taper. In addition growth above the zone is also encouraged. This autumn, at each point, reduce the tree to no more than two branches and the trunk. Keep 2 branches to give future design choices. This is in case the first or second whorl of branches doesn't give you a good branch to make the whole tree with.

Think about what size future tree you want.

Wire - the wire on the straight section of trunk is not doing anything. Remove it, now. Sometime in 2018 I'd remove all wire, let it relax and grow a season or two. It needs a much heavier fertilizer routine for a season or two to beef it up to get back budding. Weak trees don't backbud. Sun, water & fertilizer, are what it needs.
 

Clicio

Omono
Messages
1,260
Reaction score
2,244
Location
São Paulo, Brazil
USDA Zone
11a
Sometime in 2018 I'd remove all wire, let it relax and grow a season or two. It needs a much heavier fertilizer routine for a season or two to beef it up to get back budding.
Well, @Leo in N E Illinois, thank you for your help, very useful info there!
I am fertilizing with Biogold pellets, and liquid every two weeks. All my trees are in the sun and watered properly.
Yes, I will remove the wire next year (it's spring in Brazil, so it is growing strong right now) and go for the trunk thickening.
Thanks!
 

Clicio

Omono
Messages
1,260
Reaction score
2,244
Location
São Paulo, Brazil
USDA Zone
11a
More than hope.
That other side's needle got a bud too!
That base has a great flare there.
Only HOPE if PE is the new RTICULTURE.
Sorce
UPDATE on this pine:
Well, well, well.
HOPE became reality.
It backbudded strongly, but the trunk didn't get much thicker yet, perhaps the not so big training pot.
But pictures speak louder than words:
LRM_EXPORT_20153800564546_20190601_220856621.jpeg

LRM_EXPORT_20163705534808_20190601_220906526.jpeg
 

plant_dr

Chumono
Messages
834
Reaction score
741
Location
Orem, UT
USDA Zone
5
UPDATE on this pine:
Well, well, well.
HOPE became reality.
It backbudded strongly, but the trunk didn't get much thicker yet, perhaps the not so big training pot.
But pictures speak louder than words:
View attachment 245279

View attachment 245281
I can tell a difference. At the bottom of the trunk in the first picture, you can see how much it has grown by the fractures in the bark. There weren't any cracks there before.
 

Potawatomi13

Masterpiece
Messages
3,394
Reaction score
2,157
Location
Eugene, OR
USDA Zone
8
Hot diggety dog;)! Next goal; Get rid of oxalis weeds growing in pot. Very insidious pest with exploding :eek:seed pods.
 

Adair M

Pinus Envy
Messages
12,867
Reaction score
28,932
Location
NEGeorgia
USDA Zone
7a
It’s really not going to develop girth in a bonsai pot. Want girth? Plant it in the ground, or at least a lug grow box.

Here’s how they do it at Telperion Farms:

62660AE7-92F9-4845-A84C-A9CA8442A7C3.jpeg

Those sacrifice branches get to be 12 to 15 feet tall!
 

Clicio

Omono
Messages
1,260
Reaction score
2,244
Location
São Paulo, Brazil
USDA Zone
11a
It’s really not going to develop girth in a bonsai pot. Want girth? Plant it in the ground, or at least a lug grow box.
Yes, @Adair M you are of course right.
I am going to decide if I want a shohin (chopchopchop) or if it goes into a grow box for another season or two. I"ll update this thread as soon as I take action.
 

Clicio

Omono
Messages
1,260
Reaction score
2,244
Location
São Paulo, Brazil
USDA Zone
11a
So I guess I need your help again.
The pine is healthy (still in the training pot as I still don't have a piece of ground to plant it), and yes, the buds low down are getting stronger.
Next step: It is now fighting for apical privileges as the main trunk and the almost as thick first branch both want to be the leaders.
Following @0soyoung 's advice, I think of the trunk as a sacrifice, letting it grow free.
But the branch, if let free, will contribute to the thickening of the lower trunk, isn't it so?
So I end up with two sacrifice branches, instead of one as @Adair M suggests.
1-) Should I let the two grow as sacrifice ?
2-) Should I chop the branch down?
3-) Should I chop the trunk down?
I have decided it will work as a shohin but not still sure I couldn't use the branch somehow.

FRONT as now.
20200731_141046.jpg


BACK as now:
20200731_141115.jpg


LOWER growth:
20200731_141058.jpg
 

Adair M

Pinus Envy
Messages
12,867
Reaction score
28,932
Location
NEGeorgia
USDA Zone
7a
If you want to build trunk, get it out of that small pot, and put it in something larger.

if you want a Shohin, everything above the lowest tuft of needles will eventually have to be removed, as the internode is far too long on both trunk and branch to be used.

For Shohin, you want something more like this:

image.jpg

The lower trunk on my tree is about the same size as yours, but the little branches are little, in scale with a tiny tree. You need to develop little branches down low. And once you get some, remove those long trunks.

or else, plan for a taller tree. And put it in a larger “grow pot”.
 
Thread starter Similar threads Forum Replies Date
G Young JBP - Any Hope? Pines 8
R Is there any hope for this jbp... New to Bonsai 6
R JBP Fall Repot In Zone 7b Pines 4
D JBP- Can you prune and candle? Pines 13
R JBP Seedlings Going Strong Pines 9
Similar threads





Top Bottom