Hans van Meer
Yamadori
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- Thread starter king kong
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No doubt that American Bonsai is much older then European bonsai. This proves my point as well, look at how much further along the scene in Europe is vs. America who has been at it much longer.
Jason
Marc S
Yamadori
Yes that's amazing. I found some books in second hand stores published in the US in 1958, 1964 and 1970, reprinted 30 times in a few years. One of them is a "Sunset Book", a popular edition, which seems to indicate there was a big market for it back then.
Marc S
Yamadori
A cold one?
Ex wife's, Mother in law, Eskimo pu...!
Hans.
Moose drool?
Bonsai Nut
Nuttier than your average Nut
I think this is a hard statement to make, since I don't know how you can quantify how much "further along" one region is versus another. I would argue that bonsai on the West Coast of America is in a very different state of development than the rest of the country. I assume that there are regional differences in Europe as well. Likewise, bonsai "development" varies dramatically by individual. If you have a world master living in one region that has very few other bonsai practitioners, versus another region that has a lot of advanced hobbyists but no masters, which is more developed?
Recent online contests don't really prove anything, given that many of the masters that I know of personally don't hang out on the Internet.
I say this based on the things I see in magazines, books, the people I know and talk to often and by what is seen online. The Noleanders, The Ginko, the shows in Italy, etc... There are over 500 bonsai "Masters" in Europe according to Walter Pall, They European trees shown in books, and contests are in general further along then we see here.
Sure there are little pockets of good trees throught the US, and I hope to see Bill V and his show reach status of the Ginko in the future. But mainly like you say it is the WestCoast and in the NE and tropicals in Florida. But on a whole you have to admit Europe is leading us by far. Another wonderful thing for Europe is they can import trees still, something we can't really do as easy as them.
It is looking good for us though, there are some very young talented apprentices in Japan right now, 2of which are going to be returning to the NW when thier 5 to 6 years is up. That will be a good thing for bonsai in the states.
I also based my comment on the fact that we have been at it much longer the Europe and we still lag behind them. Sad but true.
Jason
Bonsai Nut
Nuttier than your average Nut
One thing that I can say for a fact is that ornamental gardening in the UK is much larger (on a per capita basis) than ornamental gardening in the U.S. (Based on industry sales statistics) That includes water gardening as well. I assume this would extend to bonsai, but don't really know. I don't know how it extends to the rest of Western Europe.
Interestingly, I am not aware of any group or movement in the U.S. focused on "growing" the number of bonsai practitioners. You have to kind of bump into the art form. No one, for example, introduced me to the hobby. Rather, my mom took me to some garden centers as a child that had bonsai and I became intrigued and the interest has stuck with me over the years. I had to search out other bonsai practitioners and groups, and to be frank the first couple of years the experience was not particularly friendly.
I was just at a garden show where a guest speaker came from a local club to talk about bonsai. This was someone who has been a well-regarded bonsai hobbyist in the area for decades. He didn't really seem to know what to say. He certainly didn't have an objective to his speech - which could have been "an introduction to the hobby and where to go to become more involved". This was for a garden group who sought him out and invited him to their meeting. I can think of no better group to get more involved. And yet he left no general information about his bonsai club, about Internet groups, bonsai nurseries, nothing. To top it off, after the presentation I sent him an email to talk about some things from the meeting. He never responded to my note. If this is our best example of a ambassador to the art, then it is no wonder why we can't seem to get more people involved. This is not intended to point fingers at any one individual. Rather, it begs the question "how many people have YOU brought into bonsai?". We tend to be a very tight and inward-looking group of people...
Interestingly, I am not aware of any group or movement in the U.S. focused on "growing" the number of bonsai practitioners. You have to kind of bump into the art form. No one, for example, introduced me to the hobby. Rather, my mom took me to some garden centers as a child that had bonsai and I became intrigued and the interest has stuck with me over the years. I had to search out other bonsai practitioners and groups, and to be frank the first couple of years the experience was not particularly friendly.
I was just at a garden show where a guest speaker came from a local club to talk about bonsai. This was someone who has been a well-regarded bonsai hobbyist in the area for decades. He didn't really seem to know what to say. He certainly didn't have an objective to his speech - which could have been "an introduction to the hobby and where to go to become more involved". This was for a garden group who sought him out and invited him to their meeting. I can think of no better group to get more involved. And yet he left no general information about his bonsai club, about Internet groups, bonsai nurseries, nothing. To top it off, after the presentation I sent him an email to talk about some things from the meeting. He never responded to my note. If this is our best example of a ambassador to the art, then it is no wonder why we can't seem to get more people involved. This is not intended to point fingers at any one individual. Rather, it begs the question "how many people have YOU brought into bonsai?". We tend to be a very tight and inward-looking group of people...
"According to Walter Pall there are over 500 bonsai "Masters" in Europe"
That is amazing! That would mean that Europe rules the Bonsai world as they have far more than Japan and the rest of the world combined!!!
I would have to say when you appoint your self as a "bonsai Master" it does make it a little easier to "achieve that status. By those standards I would also say those estimates are low.
Please share with us more specifically how American Bonsai is lagging behind Europe. I am curious if these are your original thoughts and formulated from your own travels and first hand knowledge or are you just repeating what visting European "Masters" have told you?
Thanks!
Mark
That is amazing! That would mean that Europe rules the Bonsai world as they have far more than Japan and the rest of the world combined!!!
I would have to say when you appoint your self as a "bonsai Master" it does make it a little easier to "achieve that status. By those standards I would also say those estimates are low.
Please share with us more specifically how American Bonsai is lagging behind Europe. I am curious if these are your original thoughts and formulated from your own travels and first hand knowledge or are you just repeating what visting European "Masters" have told you?
Thanks!
Mark
Walter Pall
Masterpiece
I think that 500 very good bonsai stylists in Europe is a fair estimate. I have talked about this with Hotsumi Terakawa and Nobo Kajiwara who know the European and, of course , also the Japanese scene very well. They both said that there are FAR more bonsai artists in Europe than in Japan. When I heard this the first time several years ago I could not believe it myself. I said that there must be several hundred in Japan. The answer was 'these are mostly gardeners'.
I know Mark that this is just too much for you to accept. Why don't you ask these folks yourself directly? Why don't you ask Marco, who knows this very well. Why don't you inform yourself instead of spitting venom all over the internet?
I know Mark that this is just too much for you to accept. Why don't you ask these folks yourself directly? Why don't you ask Marco, who knows this very well. Why don't you inform yourself instead of spitting venom all over the internet?
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Marc S
Yamadori
I think European pioneers (like Pius Notter and Danny Use for example) were an example for everyone here. Their standards are very high, so their "disciples" adopt the same high standards almost automatically. A tree accepted as a good bonsai in the US isn't necessarely accepted as such here.
From what I see on the Internet, there's undoubtly a difference between American and European bonsai as there is a difference between European and Japanese bonsai. European bonsai are more compact, have a thicker trunk most of the time, and look more "mature" in general. European bonsai has freed itself from the rigid Japanese rules.
I'm very lucky to live close to Danny Use, I can see him at work, and running a bonsai nursery is HARD work.
Marc S
Yamadori
I wonder how many bonsai enthousiasts in the US know this guy:
http://www.vlbanting.com/bonsaicourtyard.htm
http://www.vlbanting.com/bonsaicourtyard.htm
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Yes Mark, that is amazing isn't it?? Like Walter pointed out, there are not many bonsai masters in Japan left. Bonsai is a slowly dying tradition there. Although I do know that Mr. Kimura now has a few young Japanese apprentice's, something that is hard to find.
I wouldn't know this since I haven't appointed myself a master........
Ok Mark, All one has to do is open an eye to the global world of bonsai, it is pretty simple. Look at the internet, look at books, look at magazines, look at the prestige of shows and exhibits, look at the quality of these trees, look at the amount of killer collections by many, many folks in Europe. All one has to do is open an eye, talk to peopel who KNOW and network. Simple really.
Sure I speak with and spend time with a few European "Masters", but I am not just spouting off what they tell me, no way. I have never been to Europe, know many who have and know many European bonsai artists. Just because we live in America doesn't mean that we are the best at everything and no one can be better, trust me there are many nations out there better then us at many things.
Nobody has traveled America and Europe doing bonsai more then Walter. Walter has been in the backyards of pretty much everyone who has a descent collection of bonsai in America. The same with Europe, if anyone is to know the status of bonsai in both places it would be him and I do value Walter's opinions, thoughts and ideas.
So Mark, what do you base your condesending tone off of?
Thanks, Jason
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Well... "500 bonsai Masters" has now become "500" very good bonsai stylists" .
That is a different conversation , but the trouble is that these half truths keep growing and are used to create false impressions. They are repeated as fact and no one questions them.
Its funny you mention venom. That is exactly what I think of your 'brand" of Bonsai and your agenda.You attack Japan and Japanese Bonsai, Japanese artists and teachers at every opportunity. Why?
We need to ask our selves if he loves Bonsai and cares about it flourishing why would he continue focus on things which will serve to tear down Bonsai in Japan and in America? Why would he continue this campaign "all over the internet"? I think by now we all know what you really care about.
Mark
That is a different conversation , but the trouble is that these half truths keep growing and are used to create false impressions. They are repeated as fact and no one questions them.
Its funny you mention venom. That is exactly what I think of your 'brand" of Bonsai and your agenda.You attack Japan and Japanese Bonsai, Japanese artists and teachers at every opportunity. Why?
We need to ask our selves if he loves Bonsai and cares about it flourishing why would he continue focus on things which will serve to tear down Bonsai in Japan and in America? Why would he continue this campaign "all over the internet"? I think by now we all know what you really care about.
Mark
Wait, I will answer my own question....you just have an issue with Europeans and European bonsai. I see.
No false impression here Mark, America is behind Europe in Bonsai amongst other things. Would you please show us your better "brand" of bonsai so that we can see just how much better you are at bonsai then the Europeans? I see you have an agenda here....
You are funny, Walter shows us a different way to skin the cat and now he tearing down bonsai in Japan and America!! haha, Walter styles his decidous trees to look like a tree, what is wrong with this? Look at the books from Japan of shows, they do the same thing, their very good decidous show trees look like trees. What about this gets you all fired up? If Walter didn't care about bonsai then he wouldn't travel to all parts of the world teaching. I think you are the one with the issues here.
He uses the internet to show his trees, help people along and promote his teachings, the same way you are using to slam him. Get over it dude.
I look forward to seeing your "Brand" of bonsai.
Thanks, Jason
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pauldogx
Mame
Huh??? Really??? Wow. Please, step away from the bong..........
Walter Pall
Masterpiece
Wow, this sounds so interesting. Where exactly can I find this on the net?
Mark, you have this problem of shooting the messenger when your view of the bonsai world is destroyed. You could also change your view of the bonsai world.
Here is more History info that was brought to my attention.
http://phoenixbonsai.com/BigPicture/Timeline2.html
http://phoenixbonsai.com/BigPicture/Timeline2.html
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Well we do not have to go very far to find an example. I refer to "Bonsai that break the rules" and your childish reply to my post and your self admitted poor examples.Unfortunately you have beating this anti -Japanese drum for years. On the one hand you use Japanese terms, some imported Japanese Bonsai
and seek approval from visting Japanese Masters. On the other hand you show disdain, you relish in any "news" of the reported decline or demise of Bonsai in Japan. You continually trumpet your belief that Bonsai is no longer a "Japanese Game" and European Bonsai and artists are now "leading" the world.
Your Brand of Bonsai is vacant of the True Spirit of Bonsai. You were given a gift which contains many jewels which could provide you with insight. You chose to extract quotes to promote your own views rather than find the true Spirit contained within. Did you read the text on Suiseki?
My view of Bonsai changes with study of REAL Bonsai and I continue to seek insight while you are stuck in your self importance.
In my opinion your brand of Bonsai is diametrically opposed to that of True Bonsai.
Try reading Morimae's thoughts on the heart of Bonsai and Suiseki without world domination on your mind.
Mark
and seek approval from visting Japanese Masters. On the other hand you show disdain, you relish in any "news" of the reported decline or demise of Bonsai in Japan. You continually trumpet your belief that Bonsai is no longer a "Japanese Game" and European Bonsai and artists are now "leading" the world.
Your Brand of Bonsai is vacant of the True Spirit of Bonsai. You were given a gift which contains many jewels which could provide you with insight. You chose to extract quotes to promote your own views rather than find the true Spirit contained within. Did you read the text on Suiseki?
My view of Bonsai changes with study of REAL Bonsai and I continue to seek insight while you are stuck in your self importance.
In my opinion your brand of Bonsai is diametrically opposed to that of True Bonsai.
Try reading Morimae's thoughts on the heart of Bonsai and Suiseki without world domination on your mind.
Mark
Marc S
Yamadori
What's the true spirit of Bonsai (in a nutshell)?