Master Discussion: Summer and Fall Collecting and Repotting

[Townes Van Tortoise]

I found some pics of the tree I posted about plus 2 others collected same time. They were taken not long after collection. I forgot that I did trim back the long apex on the little one I posted about, around December or so, after I could tell it wasn't deal from the transplant. I saw someone mention that u have to trim foliage to balance out the lost roots. I believe that with California junipers at least this is untrue. Losing roots does affect its ability to take up water, but this species is such a drought adapted species that it is used to going long stretches without any water uptake through its roots already. I believe that by removing foliage you are just further shocking the plant. Also, the tips of the juniper foliage have stores carbs and are important to it for various reasons. I think that you want to keep as much foliage as possible, as the foliage powers the plant. I believe it is able to deal reduced water intake on it's own. If u think about it, the tree is recieving so much more water during aftercare than it received in it's natural habitat , even with much less roots it is still going to be taking in more water than it did before collection.

 

[Townes Van Tortoise]

The Moon.

#1 IMO for cycles of root growth.

Sorce

I know this was old , but would you mind expanding. Never heard anything on this

 

[sorce]

would you mind expanding.

Like a beach towel in a capsule, or a sponge dinosaur, a straw paper worm, highly compressed Coco fibers, a hot milk jug, sweatpants on Thanksgiving, baking soda and ketchup, Pepsi and twizzlers, macafrickinroni!

All these were potted successfully the last full moon. I recently read here, the day before or after the full moon is best, so these were done the day after and following weekish. They all have threads.
Before, I would pot, also successfully but only evergreens, just before the full moon, or during the Waning moon.











People dismiss it left and right, which is funny, because it's not like God, one can actually go out and look at the roots growing, then brown up, be it outside of a basket, or under a pot, every new moon.

It only took me about one season to be convinced, so it shouldn't take long.

We musta hit 90F everyday till about yesterday since these were potted.
We should consider soil temps over air temps, as the trees do.

They are saying it's too hot to Repot down south during the Summer, I really don't buy it. Unless in an oven like Fresno, where a full shutdown is reported in summer.
One moon before that, and the one directly after, or last during, should prove fine to Repot.

I have been pondering the difference between a tropical root and a temperate Root. Why we would say tropicals like repotted in full growth mode, In summer, but not others. It makes no sense. I feel a "fear of the people" because of what is regularly taught.

If you have been watching the Peter Warren videos, he believes in this thing as I do, of 2%. He speaks of biologics in the soil, but this moon potting, is the same, merely 2% of a whole program. You can get away with it at other times, but, as I recently typed before, this is like spinning a spinning quarter, you flick it and it keeps spinning, if you miss you still have a spendable quarter.

Unless the tree is sickly. Emergency repots should ALWAYS be done by the moon.

We have a large database here, it would only take a handful of us to go back, look at pictures details for dates, check the moon phase, and jot some notes.
I bet most "didn't skip a beats" were good by the moon.
Bet most failed repots were against it.

Perhaps the only key to summer repotting is the moon. Unsure.

For what it's worth, this purple smoke tree and maple pushed new top growth through the waxing moon, as per the pattern.

Since I defoliated and chopped back the elm, it went bonkers right after and thru till a recent dry spell.

I guess there is not really an expansion beyond, it works, and try it out!

Sorce

 

[Vance Wood]

Like a beach towel in a capsule, or a sponge dinosaur, a straw paper worm, highly compressed Coco fibers, a hot milk jug, sweatpants on Thanksgiving, baking soda and ketchup, Pepsi and twizzlers, macafrickinroni!

All these were potted successfully the last full moon. I recently read here, the day before or after the full moon is best, so these were done the day after and following weekish. They all have threads.
Before, I would pot, also successfully but only evergreens, just before the full moon, or during the Waning moon.
View attachment 320265


View attachment 320266


View attachment 320267


View attachment 320268

People dismiss it left and right, which is funny, because it's not like God, one can actually go out and look at the roots growing, then brown up, be it outside of a basket, or under a pot, every new moon.

It only took me about one season to be convinced, so it shouldn't take long.

We musta hit 90F everyday till about yesterday since these were potted.
We should consider soil temps over air temps, as the trees do.

They are saying it's too hot to Repot down south during the Summer, I really don't buy it. Unless in an oven like Fresno, where a full shutdown is reported in summer.
One moon before that, and the one directly after, or last during, should prove fine to Repot.

I have been pondering the difference between a tropical root and a temperate Root. Why we would say tropicals like repotted in full growth mode, In summer, but not others. It makes no sense. I feel a "fear of the people" because of what is regularly taught.

If you have been watching the Peter Warren videos, he believes in this thing as I do, of 2%. He speaks of biologics in the soil, but this moon potting, is the same, merely 2% of a whole program. You can get away with it at other times, but, as I recently typed before, this is like spinning a spinning quarter, you flick it and it keeps spinning, if you miss you still have a spendable quarter.

Unless the tree is sickly. Emergency repots should ALWAYS be done by the moon.

We have a large database here, it would only take a handful of us to go back, look at pictures details for dates, check the moon phase, and jot some notes.
I bet most "didn't skip a beats" were good by the moon.
Bet most failed repots were against it.

Perhaps the only key to summer repotting is the moon. Unsure.

For what it's worth, this purple smoke tree and maple pushed new top growth through the waxing moon, as per the pattern.

Since I defoliated and chopped back the elm, it went bonkers right after and thru till a recent dry spell.

I guess there is not really an expansion beyond, it works, and try it out!

Sorce

Like a beach towel in a capsule, or a sponge dinosaur, a straw paper worm, highly compressed Coco fibers, a hot milk jug, sweatpants on Thanksgiving, baking soda and ketchup, Pepsi and twizzlers, macafrickinroni!

All these were potted successfully the last full moon. I recently read here, the day before or after the full moon is best, so these were done the day after and following weekish. They all have threads.
Before, I would pot, also successfully but only evergreens, just before the full moon, or during the Waning moon.
View attachment 320265


View attachment 320266


View attachment 320267


View attachment 320268

People dismiss it left and right, which is funny, because it's not like God, one can actually go out and look at the roots growing, then brown up, be it outside of a basket, or under a pot, every new moon.

It only took me about one season to be convinced, so it shouldn't take long.

We musta hit 90F everyday till about yesterday since these were potted.
We should consider soil temps over air temps, as the trees do.

They are saying it's too hot to Repot down south during the Summer, I really don't buy it. Unless in an oven like Fresno, where a full shutdown is reported in summer.
One moon before that, and the one directly after, or last during, should prove fine to Repot.

I have been pondering the difference between a tropical root and a temperate Root. Why we would say tropicals like repotted in full growth mode, In summer, but not others. It makes no sense. I feel a "fear of the people" because of what is regularly taught.

If you have been watching the Peter Warren videos, he believes in this thing as I do, of 2%. He speaks of biologics in the soil, but this moon potting, is the same, merely 2% of a whole program. You can get away with it at other times, but, as I recently typed before, this is like spinning a spinning quarter, you flick it and it keeps spinning, if you miss you still have a spendable quarter.

Unless the tree is sickly. Emergency repots should ALWAYS be done by the moon.

We have a large database here, it would only take a handful of us to go back, look at pictures details for dates, check the moon phase, and jot some notes.
I bet most "didn't skip a beats" were good by the moon.
Bet most failed repots were against it.

Perhaps the only key to summer repotting is the moon. Unsure.

For what it's worth, this purple smoke tree and maple pushed new top growth through the waxing moon, as per the pattern.

Since I defoliated and chopped back the elm, it went bonkers right after and thru till a recent dry spell.

I guess there is not really an expansion beyond, it works, and try it out!

Sorce

 

[Townes Van Tortoise]

Like a beach towel in a capsule, or a sponge dinosaur, a straw paper worm, highly compressed Coco fibers, a hot milk jug, sweatpants on Thanksgiving, baking soda and ketchup, Pepsi and twizzlers, macafrickinroni!

All these were potted successfully the last full moon. I recently read here, the day before or after the full moon is best, so these were done the day after and following weekish. They all have threads.
Before, I would pot, also successfully but only evergreens, just before the full moon, or during the Waning moon.
View attachment 320265


View attachment 320266


View attachment 320267


View attachment 320268

People dismiss it left and right, which is funny, because it's not like God, one can actually go out and look at the roots growing, then brown up, be it outside of a basket, or under a pot, every new moon.

It only took me about one season to be convinced, so it shouldn't take long.

We musta hit 90F everyday till about yesterday since these were potted.
We should consider soil temps over air temps, as the trees do.

They are saying it's too hot to Repot down south during the Summer, I really don't buy it. Unless in an oven like Fresno, where a full shutdown is reported in summer.
One moon before that, and the one directly after, or last during, should prove fine to Repot.

I have been pondering the difference between a tropical root and a temperate Root. Why we would say tropicals like repotted in full growth mode, In summer, but not others. It makes no sense. I feel a "fear of the people" because of what is regularly taught.

If you have been watching the Peter Warren videos, he believes in this thing as I do, of 2%. He speaks of biologics in the soil, but this moon potting, is the same, merely 2% of a whole program. You can get away with it at other times, but, as I recently typed before, this is like spinning a spinning quarter, you flick it and it keeps spinning, if you miss you still have a spendable quarter.

Unless the tree is sickly. Emergency repots should ALWAYS be done by the moon.

We have a large database here, it would only take a handful of us to go back, look at pictures details for dates, check the moon phase, and jot some notes.
I bet most "didn't skip a beats" were good by the moon.
Bet most failed repots were against it.

Perhaps the only key to summer repotting is the moon. Unsure.

For what it's worth, this purple smoke tree and maple pushed new top growth through the waxing moon, as per the pattern.

Since I defoliated and chopped back the elm, it went bonkers right after and thru till a recent dry spell.

I guess there is not really an expansion beyond, it works, and try it out!

Sorce

Interesting, first I've ever heard of it. I guess I rarely pay attention to moon phases. So you just repot on a day when the moon is full?

Unfortunately a lot of your last post I didn't understand. I guess I'm too literal. Thankagivingswewtpsbts and ketchup?

 

[Townes Van Tortoise]

I used to repot any time and still do to s large extent
I just started 2 root over rock tridents, and a few others, all healthy. I just put them where the house shades them for a couple weeks

 

[Underdog]

I collected a 12ft tall DogWood today. Was going to the burn pile otherwise so I dug it up. Got a nice flat root system about 24 inch diameter and 8 inch deep with a 5 inch trunk Easily reduced further in the spring I believe. If it lives... Tap root broke off clean accidentally before I got to it.
Planted in the veggy garden today with several guy wires and hope for life in spring.
I haven't been posting my collected stuff for a while as it seemed to be the kiss of death for the trees. Maybe just no pics will work till spring. Fingers crossed.

Someone clicked like on this post so I thought I'd follow up. It's went in a box the next spring and did well. I left it alone to do it's thing but the bottom of the box failed. Wired it together until this spring and built a new box this May. These pics are from then. It grew well this season and has been cut back further. Second flush has hardened off now and doing great. It's a beast and now trying to decide what to do with it. Giant broom I think. I've cut a V between the top 2 branches which were shortened further.
Long story short, it lives.

 

[Underdog]

Today

 

[HoneyHornet]

Late August swamp Maple collection went well

 

[Cajunrider]

This thread is quite an interesting read and informational read.
For me tree collection so far has been 90% rescue. The trees are being removed so either I bring them home and keep them alive or they will be in the pyre or in landfill. This means I collect by happenstance. The time and place are not what I can dictate. Sometimes I can do the collection myself, sometimes I can't. The only thing I can surely do is the aftercare. If I think the tree is in trouble, I will keep it in the shade and tent it to maintain high humidity while keeping the soil from being too wet and soggy.

 

[berzerkules]

Good read. I'm a little surprised that there was no mention of what time of day people preferred to collect. I prefer to avoid collecting during mid day heat. I normally collect at night or early morning but I prefer to collect in the middle of the night.

Idk maybe I'm inexperienced and overthinking it but it seems less stressful for the tree if it's a little cooler outside, humidity is slightly higher and they are resting. When I'm collecting here the middle of the night is also not totally dark. I can easily see what I'm doing without lights.

Or maybe I'm just trying to justify being a night owl.

 

[JPH]

I voted "yes" to collecting in the fall.

My reasons are mostly practical. I live in zone 1a/1b so spring is a very unstable time. A lot of areas are still covered in snow, or drenched with water. Photo of "spring" in early May.


Species collected: Tamarack (Larix Laricina) and Black Spruce (Picea Mariana).

Roots: Most of the trees had very compact root systems with plenty of feeders near the trunk. I never bare root.


Substrate: Root balls are wrapped in the native living moss from the area. Planted into custom grow boxes I make with pallet wood and filled in with fine fir bark (the same stuff you get for orchids). Grains are about 1/4 inch in size. I can't get my hands on a usable amount of pumice up here. I'm too remote and the stuff is too darn expensive. I can get the bark shipped by the cubic foot relatively cheaply though, so again, its mostly a practical decision. It drains well but holds onto some moisture, and doesn't decompose quickly. Winter freeze/thaw didn't seem to affect it at all.

Winter care: Cover them in snow, and protect them from the wind.



Spring: When the weather got warm enough, I took them out and placed them in an area where they'd get full sun in the morning and partial shade in the afternoon. I don't have a bench yet, so I just place the boxes on pallets so they are off the ground and can drain freely. The Tamaracks have all started to bud out. The clump in particular is really exploding! The spruces seem slower to wake. No signs that I can see of damage. They actually look the same as when I collected them...Needles aren't dropping excessively, and everything is staying green and flexible. But no signs of budding yet. Could it be they are diverting most of their resources to root growth? All of the photos below are from this spring.

 

[JPH]

Speaking of unstable weather... Woke up to this.

The substrate isn't frozen at all. Seems more like a wet snow. Should be melted by noon.

 

[Cajunrider]

Question for Nutters.
For species that are really hard to bud after collection particularly in Summer or Fall, is it perhaps better to chop in place and let it form shoots and get semi-hardened before collection? What are the pros and cons?

 

[JPH]

For species that are really hard to bud after collection particularly in Summer or Fall, is it perhaps better to chop in place and let it form shoots and get semi-hardened before collection? What are the pros and cons?

I'm not an expert. But here is my 0.02. Worth every penny.

The goal after collection is always recovery. To reestablish the root system in the container. The best way IMO to do this is to leave as much foliage as you can to produce energy to support root growth. However, issues can arise where the tree can dehydrate itself if the roots are not able to keep up with the transpiration of moisture from the foliage. This is why many people leave their newly collecting trees in a shaded area protected by wind. This slows the effect of transpiration and it allows the roots time to recover without the burden of having to keep up with excess evaporation of moisture.

When people talk about "balancing" the foliage with the root system, I believe they are referring to this fact. Of slowing down the rate at which a plant loses moisture to wind/heat/sun so the compromised root system can keep up and heal.

"Back budding" as I understand it will only come once the roots are fully established and there is enough foliage to produce enough energy (photosynthesis) to support it. There must be enough water/nutrients moving through the plant to make it back bud. Only way to get that is with healthy roots and enough photosynthetic organs (leaves/needles). Basically the plant will only put out enough growth it can sustain. If it has a surplus of water and nutrients, it may bud out to form new growth. If it can't sustain it, it won't bud. Or it may even shed leaves/needles from weaker growth to preserve itself.

If the tree you wish to collect is too large, or the growth is too leggy, it is totally acceptable to chop/prune while its still in the ground since the roots are already fully established. However I think it would be wise to let the tree recover in it's native environment for a full vegetative cycle before digging it up and moving it to a container.

Pros to chopping/pruning a tree while still in the ground: Roots are already established and working (no need for recovery), so new growth will likely occur faster. This means you can potentially get a head start on setting up your primary branches. You can also reduce the size of the tree which will make it easier to collect the next season.

Cons: I guess you'd have to wait at least a season until you collect the tree and bring it home.

Again, not an expert. So I'm curious about more informed opinions.

 

[BrianBay9]

I'm not an expert. But here is my 0.02. Worth every penny.

The goal after collection is always recovery. To reestablish the root system in the container. The best way IMO to do this is to leave as much foliage as you can to produce energy to support root growth. However, issues can arise where the tree can dehydrate itself if the roots are not able to keep up with the transpiration of moisture from the foliage. This is why many people leave their newly collecting trees in a shaded area protected by wind. This slows the effect of transpiration and it allows the roots time to recover without the burden of having to keep up with excess evaporation of moisture.

When people talk about "balancing" the foliage with the root system, I believe they are referring to this fact. Of slowing down the rate at which a plant loses moisture to wind/heat/sun so the compromised root system can keep up and heal.

"Back budding" as I understand it will only come once the roots are fully established and there is enough foliage to produce enough energy (photosynthesis) to support it. There must be enough water/nutrients moving through the plant to make it back bud. Only way to get that is with healthy roots and enough photosynthetic organs (leaves/needles). Basically the plant will only put out enough growth it can sustain. If it has a surplus of water and nutrients, it may bud out to form new growth. If it can't sustain it, it won't bud. Or it may even shed leaves/needles from weaker growth to preserve itself.

If the tree you wish to collect is too large, or the growth is too leggy, it is totally acceptable to chop/prune while its still in the ground since the roots are already fully established. However I think it would be wise to let the tree recover in it's native environment for a full vegetative cycle before digging it up and moving it to a container.

Pros to chopping/pruning a tree while still in the ground: Roots are already established and working (no need for recovery), so new growth will likely occur faster. This means you can potentially get a head start on setting up your primary branches. You can also reduce the size of the tree which will make it easier to collect the next season.

Cons: I guess you'd have to wait at least a season until you collect the tree and bring it home.

Again, not an expert. So I'm curious about more informed opinions.

@ JPH you're mistaken about back budding. How trees behave is very much species dependent. Many deciduous and broad leaf evergreen trees will back bud from the energy stored in the trunk, well before roots have recovered. I'll cite coast live oak as an example. They can be collected successfully with almost no roots, and will bud out on bare wood that same spring.

As for pruning in place before collecting, that is also species and site dependent. I often do this for deciduous and broadleaf evergreens if they are in an open area, not heavily forested. If they are competing with lots of other trees for canopy space, light, water, then they might not recover from cutting back hard.

 

[Cajunrider]

@ JPH you're mistaken about back budding. How trees behave is very much species dependent. Many deciduous and broad leaf evergreen trees will back bud from the energy stored in the trunk, well before roots have recovered. I'll cite coast live oak as an example. They can be collected successfully with almost no roots, and will bud out on bare wood that same spring.

As for pruning in place before collecting, that is also species and site dependent. I often do this for deciduous and broadleaf evergreens if they are in an open area, not heavily forested. If they are competing with lots of other trees for canopy space, light, water, then they might not recover from cutting back hard.

Well here is what I have learned in this busy collection season.
1. Bald cypress can be collected after budding and can take severe root and top pruning. Shade and copious watering is needed. I potted it in cheap potting soil with lots and lots of organic and watered it well twice a day. Collected 7 very big specimen and didn’t lose one tree. My buddy took his 7 trees collected at the same time. I potted them the same way I did mine. He only watered it once a day and lost 3 trees.
2. Mayhaw collected, potted, and watered in the same manner as the BCs all survived and thriving as well.
3. Liquidambars collected, potted, and watered in the same manner suffered 50% death. Those that had some healthy leaves on them survived. They don’t want to bud at this time of year.
4. Live oaks: One month after collection the 3 collected showed good shoots and foliage but yet no roots. The sites of root cuts show calluses so roots are coming. So far all growth came from tree reserves.

 

[a0kalittlema0n]

I'll cite coast live oak as an example. They can be collected successfully with almost no roots, and will bud out on bare wood that same spring.

So with coast live oak are you letting it recover in a greenhouse or plastic bag to keep humidity high to keep the new foliage from drying out while it develops roots? What kind od care do you give it during potting up and afterwards? I'm really curious to know.

 

[JPH]

@ JPH you're mistaken about back budding. How trees behave is very much species dependent. Many deciduous and broad leaf evergreen trees will back bud from the energy stored in the trunk, well before roots have recovered. I'll cite coast live oak as an example. They can be collected successfully with almost no roots, and will bud out on bare wood that same spring.

Thanks for clearing that up! As I said I'm no expert and I'm always hungry for better/more experienced input. Cheers!

 

[JPH]

Sorry for double posting. Tried to edit my post but the time limit passed... Woops.

Allow me to offer this adjustment:

Am I wrong to say then that in order for these broadleaved trees to have said stored energy reserves it must have been in a state of great health to begin with? There would have to have been enough water/nutrients moving through the system the season prior yes? Otherwise how is the tree storing this energy to begin with? Would the species you speak of bud so aggressively if they were compromised/unhealthy the previous season? Would the budding be weaker/non existent in this case?

Also, would it be true that this adaptation of budding aggressively is a survival mechanism to put out photosynthetic material quickly to regain energy to repair damaged roots/tissue? Is this taxing for the tree?