Master Discussion: Summer and Fall Collecting and Repotting

[sorce]

The best way to be successful is to organize the " it depends' " into another flowchart of sorts for the scenario of each tree.

You must work within the same window you have success repotting within, as it is essentially the same thing, plus a location change.

A Deciduous tree that will have no feeders upon collection will die if collected in fall with no underheat.
Same tree can be collected in spring successfully.

A juniper whose roots can be fully collected, is safe to take near any time, unless most of the foilage is removed.

Lucky for us camping under a full moon is easiest.

Personal responsibility is also important, and the most difficult.

What's your discipline/root amount ratio?

Discipline being, appropriate collection practices including the moon, appropriate aftercare practices including location, and appropriate recovery time allotment.

The higher your discipline the less your root/foilage amount can be.

It depends......
Soil, location, rainfall, time, experience, aftercare, species, health.

With the endless combinations of these conditions we will encounter, it's easier to remember these things than if Joe Blow on Mount Dungpile was successful in nearly the same conditions.

Nearly the same isn't the same.

Our problem is, our egos make us dig based off "nearly the same", when we actually know better, but won't admit it at the time.

Honesty with self turns out the best collectors.

Sorce

 

[M. Frary]

I've tried collecting in late summer/early fall here with a few different species.
Jack pine.
American elm.
Hawthorne.
None have survived.
I think my winters here are too much.
They come on cold and fast.
I don't think the trees have enough time to heal the roots.

 

[Josh88]

I have only been collecting for three years now, so my information is from short sighted personal experience, while trying to get the best info I can from the successful collectors in my area. I collect in spring and fall out here in the PNW. It has been recommended to me by our more knowledgeable collectors that for our area, it is best to collect deciduous in spring as buds swell, and fall (Sept/Oct) for conifers. I have collected both at both times, and have had relatively similar success rates so far. This only includes about twenty trees, so not the kind of numbers needed for good experiments. In spring the higher altitude areas I like to visit are still snow covered, and are not safe to access, so "spring collecting" often means late May or early June, and a lot of the deciduous have already leafed out before I can get to them. The advantage to fall collecting is that these areas are easily accessible, and the rains have begun so some surface roots are growing. I attribute most of my failures to being too quick to dig and not exploring the root system far or well enough. A few trees I have collected looked great at the soil level, and upon wiggling them appeared to have great surface roots, and I moved too quickly to dig and did not realize that their trunk actually turned sharply just beneath the soil, and what I thought were surface roots moving the soil was in fact the trunk, and I was left with very little root ball and very little success in these cases. On two occasions I have also removed what I thought was a great root ball only to find that much of the space was actually occupied by rock. One of these survived and one did not. I have tried taking more roots than I thought necessary as well as going for a very compact root mass, with much better success with the trees that had a lot more root. While not surprising, this will of course lead to more time (likely years) exchanging the native soil and reducing the mass to fit a small pot, but I would rather have the live tree to tend to over the years than a bunch of dead trees I learn very little from. I imagine with more experience I will get better at finding a happy medium. As far as after care goes, I have had more luck with leaving the root ball mostly intact on my conifers rather than removing much native soil. After the rock in root ball incidents I decided to try to remove any rock before it's initial potting, and this proved too much trauma on one of the trees from that season, so I leave things mostly intact and accept that I will likely have to remove rock on subsequent repottings. I have a fairly large cold frame greenhouse I can move trees to if we are having a nasty winter, and I have heat mats that I can build a heating bed with, but have not found it necessary in the few years I 've been doing this, although I hope to run experiments in years to come to have a more informed approach. I would also guess that a few failures were due to inadequate tie downs and the trees were able to move too much in their pot, as the newly collected root balls don't always lend themselves to being easily secured, and I hope to come up with more options and techniques for securing trees very well, but this seems to be a very case by case issue. I think it is important to remember that this is a skill set that will be developed over time, and in this hobby that means years, not months. We should be judicious with what material we choose to learn on, and pick "beginner" material to collect as beginners, and work our way up to earning the right to remove more substantial trees when we have the knowledge and tool set that makes us confident in our success. That being said, I absolutely love going out on the hunt for trees and successfully bringing them home, and hope to make this a bigger part of my bonsai journey each year.

 

[TN_Jim]

Could you enlighten me on the info that there is plenty of "around"? Also explain what your aftercare is for differing species. The details are what we're trying to tease out here to educate as many as possible. Please and thank you.



Thanks for the details, let us know how it goes and any following up would be great. Remember also you can mist junipers and they can absorb a significant amount of water through the foliage to help recovery.




Thank you for the details. I think you make a good point about the 1/1,000 trees. Lifting a tree like you described sounds more similar to moving a nursery container plant to another pot, which is obviously doable at any time. This no doubt helps survivability in all collecting situations. Did you mist regardless of species? I've heard that it doesn't do too much for pines, but I'm not a huge pine lovers myself.



Ponderosa put in full sun. Left on the ground is how I would probably go if I didn't have other means to protect my trees. Thanks for the info.



Thanks for the photos of your dead trees, but I'm not sure why that is relevant. Can you go into more details about why you're so vehemently opposed to late summer / fall collecting? You essentially say that it is ignorant and due to lack of experience, but I would say plenty of people more experienced than any of us (Mauro, Walter Pall, Randy Knight, Harry Harrington, etc.) continually pursue this with consistent success. I'm not saying your opinion is wrong (Ryan Neil doesn't love the idea himself...) but I'm curious as to your logic behind your opinion. As you say, it may be a terrible idea for your climate or whatever, just curious.

As for the last portion of your post, if you look through the threads here you'd see exactly what you're asking for...

First, I appreciate this thread in that you appear to be purely coming from a place of inquiry combined with the request to back up ones standing/statements....as opposed to another ‘summer collection is sweeeeet!!’ thread.

To clarify a stance here...What is ideal collect?: For me, that’s just before bud break late winter/early spring.

What was the point of photo of dead trees?...the elm collected/saved from certain death last year “out of season” in the middle that pile that has new leaves -in fact not dead.

In other words, the biggest point of my post was my region, and personal experience. My direct region per say where I have collected trees and other plants would be Northern Alabama, southern Kentucky, and Tennessee. That said, most have been e/w,
plateau, surrounding variable topographic areas, and in central basin of TN. I can not speak with experience to any other regions with personal calling experience, only an awareness of plant biology.

Presently (Sept. 20), in the past 20+ days we’ve been low to high 90’s F*, and lows in 70’s. Also, September/October here are months with lowest precipitation -we have had one, ONE!!, good rain in the past 20+ days. Everywhere I look I see truely stressed trees...this is the hardest time of the year I observe for most tree species. I see leaves dropping and it is not because of a cold snap. Trees are not pulling water from the earth for basic purposes associated with vascular tissue, they are cooling themselves off via xylem...interference with the literal root of this water uptake (already in limited supply) and bad things can ensue.

With respect to that, I found a 1 cm winged elm two weeks ago that needed to be removed from a landscape bed. I dug it and all the TN red clay fell off the roots essentially bare rooting it -I put this in a 1 gal nursery can in 100% pine fines (not sifted fines, more akin to what you’d sift for bonsai soil prior to sifting)...branches cut back...all but 6 leaves removed...past couple of days= bunch of new buds...

So can you collect in late summer/fall, sure. Just like the elm in the pile of dead trees, just like the erc I posted above collected in summer 3 yrs ago, just like the one I collected two weeks ago... My point is, is the best time to collect here, now? In my experience, no. I have consistently tried over the past three years with a variety of species and techniques and the ongoing theme has been -this is not the optimal time, or just plain mortality... Yet I see a thread on sweetgum collection in summer etc. and boom, not great again and again.

That said. Of the many (~50) trees I have collected “in season” over the past three years, I have only lost two. So should I collect because I can?...or when it is best?

One reoccurring amazing lesson that bonsai has relentlessly taught, is patience, temperance. I can also wait for an optimal time to collect. Why risk on “can”.

I’m not trying to wave some flag here, if I could collect in summer or fall with the same success I would. Someone please show me how. Until then, my personal (and moral) choice is to not condone it.
Thanks

@Mike Hennigan, that was a very interesting read, thank you. Here’s a stick in my spokes -among those 2 I lost having collected “in season”, they were a beech and a birch, two species Harry mentioned...always a caveat ...

 

[Tbrshou]

The best way to be successful is to organize the " it depends' " into another flowchart of sorts for the scenario of each tree.

You must work within the same window you have success repotting within, as it is essentially the same thing, plus a location change.

A Deciduous tree that will have no feeders upon collection will die if collected in fall with no underheat.
Same tree can be collected in spring successfully.

A juniper whose roots can be fully collected, is safe to take near any time, unless most of the foilage is removed.

Lucky for us camping under a full moon is easiest.

Personal responsibility is also important, and the most difficult.

What's your discipline/root amount ratio?

Discipline being, appropriate collection practices including the moon, appropriate aftercare practices including location, and appropriate recovery time allotment.

The higher your discipline the less your root/foilage amount can be.

It depends......
Soil, location, rainfall, time, experience, aftercare, species, health.

With the endless combinations of these conditions we will encounter, it's easier to remember these things than if Joe Blow on Mount Dungpile was successful in nearly the same conditions.

Nearly the same isn't the same.

Our problem is, our egos make us dig based off "nearly the same", when we actually know better, but won't admit it at the time.

Honesty with self turns out the best collectors.

Sorce

On other occasions ive noticed you using the moon as a reference when collecting could you explain this part to me just curious

 

[sorce]

On other occasions ive noticed you using the moon as a reference when collecting could you explain this part to me just curious

There isn't as much documentation here as I thought there was, nonetheless, catch me on a waning moon day like today, and I'll see roots popping out somewhere. Like This which is least likely to get roots into open air.


There they are.

Every waning moon I can produce a pic like that of something pushing roots.

Not every waxing moon, not by far. I've only caught waxing moon roots out the basket 3 times.
Only once "regular", once indoors under lights over winter, and most recently on this elm that, I recently discovered some kinda pest suppressing leaf growth.
Adds to the "smart tree" theory because while it couldn't most efficiently produce top growth, it chose to push extra root growth thru the waxing moon.

If we can key into these subtle messages, we can achieve success collecting.

Sorce

 

[Johnathan]

Why? Sure you can collect junipers in late summer, but why? I highly recommend you start with material you don’t have your heart set on.
View attachment 263407

#1 the folks there are planning on selling the home, so I'm not sure it'll be available in spring. It's blocking the street view driveway so it's an eyesore and hazard when backing out the driveway.

#2 It's a large tree, but definitely not a world class, "twisted and gnarly" tree. Not something I have my heart set on.

For me, it aligns with something I read on here earlier this year which really "spoke to me" that message being, experience is the best teacher. I can read, read, and read but until I do it's just not going to stick to the wall. Also, what I read, read, and read that everyone all over the world is doing, doesn't necessarily mean it's going to work in my climate. Which leads me back to having to do it just doing it

 

[Igor. T. Ljubek]

There is a huge difference between collecting and repotting. Collecting deciduous from nature in summer/fall is way more risking then repotting an old bonsai from one pot to another. Walter Pall has been talking about late summer repotting, not collecting, though even collecting can be done, if you have a bit of luck with roots and foliage on collected trees. You don't want to dig up a trunk chopped tree in late summer. You want to keep as many branches (leaves) and tiny roots as possible which is in most case a very hard job. That's why spring collecting is safer: roots have enough time to regrowth. In spring you are not limited much, you can do a heavy trunk chop, heavy root and branch pruning etc. So, if something is possible that doesn't mean it's the best for a tree. There are few exceptions, some conifers and evergreens response better on summer collecting, depends on zone but i am not very familiar with conifers/evergreens so i won't play a smart guy here

 

[Johnathan]

Well.... my collection didn't go as smoothly as planned. It was just a bit much for a solo collection. I'll need to wait until I can get some of the local guys together. Probably end up being a spring collection.

Here is a pic of the size we're talking about.



Welp, I guess I'll turn my attention to collecting winter oaks now.

 

[TN_Jim]

Well.... my collection didn't go as smoothly as planned. It was just a bit much for a solo collection. I'll need to wait until I can get some of the local guys together. Probably end up being a spring collection.

Here is a pic of the size we're talking about.

View attachment 263609

Welp, I guess I'll turn my attention to collecting winter oaks now.

That’s meaty!

 

[wireme]

Details please!!! Where and how was it overwintered? Was it in full shade, how long? Have you fertilized since then? How long ago did you collect it? What makes you say it isn't vigorous?



I'm assuming you brought them back to CA where you live? How was the climate different from when it was collected? Did it experience any shock from the change? Was it at alpine height where you collected it? Explain what you mean in picking the right tree, I know that is true of collection as a whole, but how does that apply specifically to Fall collection vs Spring collection? How long did they take to "recover" and be vigorous again? Did you fertilize at all? What was the aftercare that it was given? Potted up, in pumice, replanted in ground for winter? What was your winter care like?



Interesting. If you aren't a Mirai Live subscriber you haven't seen this video, but Randy Knight discusses having a coarse sawdust bed on top of landscaping fabric (to keep roots from growing into ground) and uses this shaded area as a "danger tree" area. He also mentions that being in Portland-ish area that he has never seen a tree drown in sawdust. He also suggests putting all deciduous trees into sawdust first and by doing so he saw survival rates of deciduous collected material skyrocket into 95%+. Talks about how he used to field grow trees and lose a ton of deciduous when digging them until he did the sawdust method.

Thanks for adding to the knowledge

Hm. No I’m not a Mirai subscriber (maybe someday) so it’s the first I’ve heard of Randy K. using a sawdust bed that is very interesting, thanks.

Sounds like you searched about all there is to search for info eh? Have you seen the mounding over fabric on the ground method that Anton N. relates in his blog? Kinda older post but it’s probably still there. Also a very good recovery method. Tight pumice boxes are “in” and good but certainly not the only way, maybe not even the best way.

 

[sorce]

maybe not even the best way.

Surely not the best way.

Sorce

 

[Brian Van Fleet]

Surely not the best way.

Sorce

Definitely been the best way for me both times I went out west collecting...but I only have my experience to go on...

 

[penumbra]

I think it is fabulous that so many trees are salvaged from overgrown landscapes. I think its fantastic that many trees are saved from areas being cleared. I trans[planted several beech trees and some viburnums (in my yard now) from developed areas when I was the staff horticulturist for a major developer in Fairfax. I also used tree spades to save hundreds of larger native trees to replant in naturalized areas for which I won several awards. I still transplant young trees on my own property and adjacent properties.
I recognize that many of you are highly skilled in collecting old beautiful trees with very good survival rates, yet I morn for the thousands of collected trees that perish. Frequently when I hike along trails, be it mountain or seaside, I am thrilled to find the occasional rare tree that has carved out a nitch in nature and survived or thrived for decades and more. From the Blue Ridge to the Everglades I view them for the natural wonder that they are and I hope you never find them. Fortunately most of those I have enjoyed are in National Parks & Forests.
Bit of a buzz kill but it is they way I feel.

 

[TN_Jim]

Hm. No I’m not a Mirai subscriber (maybe someday) so it’s the first I’ve heard of Randy K. using a sawdust bed that is very interesting, thanks.

Sounds like you searched about all there is to search for info eh? Have you seen the mounding over fabric on the ground method that Anton N. relates in his blog? Kinda older post but it’s probably still there. Also a very good recovery method. Tight pumice boxes are “in” and good but certainly not the only way, maybe not even the best way.

There is a Mirai asymmetry podcast that is free. One awhile back Ryan interviews Randy Knight -this is a great listen among other interviews.

 

[sorce]

Definitely been the best way for me both times I went out west collecting...but I only have my experience to go on...
View attachment 263817View attachment 263818

How much soil did you have left on?
Pumice particle size?

I think it is successful with collected trees specifically because of its properties as it relates to the Pumice around it.

Quite like the ballbearings and compost theory of @Anthony , the Pumice allows a good transition from new to old, allowing enough space for old soil to wash thru.

I have had success with a severely root pruned boxwood, but there was always half inch of good green moss atop it.

My JBP seedling...fuggetaboutit....
With no other soil and iffy moss, it grows like shit.

I think it serves as a wonderful transition soil...

But key is that shin, which, as the "beating heart", not ... Beating heart....

If left alone the tree happens to do well, If torn into, other stuff, the fine feeders, are surely destroyed, I think this is why @Adair M
Is right about the shin being useless.
But tearing into it kills the tree.

Sorce

 

[BrianBay9]

I think it is fabulous that so many trees are salvaged from overgrown landscapes. I think its fantastic that many trees are saved from areas being cleared. I trans[planted several beech trees and some viburnums (in my yard now) from developed areas when I was the staff horticulturist for a major developer in Fairfax. I also used tree spades to save hundreds of larger native trees to replant in naturalized areas for which I won several awards. I still transplant young trees on my own property and adjacent properties.
I recognize that many of you are highly skilled in collecting old beautiful trees with very good survival rates, yet I morn for the thousands of collected trees that perish. Frequently when I hike along trails, be it mountain or seaside, I am thrilled to find the occasional rare tree that has carved out a nitch in nature and survived or thrived for decades and more. From the Blue Ridge to the Everglades I view them for the natural wonder that they are and I hope you never find them. Fortunately most of those I have enjoyed are in National Parks & Forests.
Bit of a buzz kill but it is they way I feel.

This may be a bit of an eastern US vs western US thing. When I've been collecting in the Rockies I have enjoyed thousands of tree that are wild bonsai gems that I could never hope to get out of the rock. Short of using dynamite they'll stay where they are, at least until the next wildfire roars through. I find maybe 1 in a thousand that I can collect. When I'm done, the landscape looks identical to when I arrived. At my last great collecting site I took 10 trees over two sessions. The year after the area burned in a major wildfire killing all that were left. Could say I stole 10 natural wonders from the western mountains. Could say I saved 10 trees that are still alive and sparking joy in people that view them.

 

[penumbra]

This may be a bit of an eastern US vs western US thing. When I've been collecting in the Rockies I have enjoyed thousands of tree that are wild bonsai gems that I could never hope to get out of the rock. Short of using dynamite they'll stay where they are, at least until the next wildfire roars through. I find maybe 1 in a thousand that I can collect. When I'm done, the landscape looks identical to when I arrived. At my last great collecting site I took 10 trees over two sessions. The year after the area burned in a major wildfire killing all that were left. Could say I stole 10 natural wonders from the western mountains. Could say I saved 10 trees that are still alive and sparking joy in people that view them.

I am sure you are right and I have no experience with the west. Also, large ranging fires are pretty rare on the east coast, usually. In your instance I can say I am glad that you "saved " your trees but there is no way you could have predicted the fire. (I don't think so anyway)
I am very glad for your post and I am happy that there are many trees not accessible to you. But that is not to say that some over zealous collectors don't try anyway, and almost certainly kill these trees.
I have loved bonsai since I was 15, 70 now. But I will always love wild plants more than the finest bonsai. Having said this I must add that I have tremendous respect for people that do bonsai and I am quite envious of many bonsai people and their bonsai on this same site.

 

[wireme]

There is a Mirai asymmetry podcast that is free. One awhile back Ryan interviews Randy Knight -this is a great listen among other interviews.

I’ve watched a few of the available free videos and thought they were great. Still haven’t figured out how to listen to podcasts, I mean I haven’t tried to figure it out. I’d like to do that for driving but these days it’s pretty rare that I’m behind a wheel for more than 10mins at a time. It is firewood season though and I did recently get a Dewalt charger that’s also a wireless speaker... can these podcasts be downloaded so you can listen away from wifi?

 

[Josh88]

I’ve watched a few of the available free videos and thought they were great. Still haven’t figured out how to listen to podcasts, I mean I haven’t tried to figure it out. I’d like to do that for driving but these days it’s pretty rare that I’m behind a wheel for more than 10mins at a time. It is firewood season though and I did recently get a Dewalt charger that’s also a wireless speaker... can these podcasts be downloaded so you can listen away from wifi?

If you search for "podcast app" along with whatever kind of phone you have, you should easily find the right app, then just search for mirai, or anything else you are interested in. There is also the Bonsai Network Podcast from Bjorn, but he hasn't added anything in almost a year. Once you subscribe to a podcast it will download new episodes to your phone so you can listen away from wifi. Podcasts have saved my sanity during my commute, as listening to the same five songs on the radio or keeping up with current news would drive me crazy.