Pine Pruning Plan

[Apex37]

I recently acquired this pine and I'm trying to figure out best plan here for long term styling. I have ideas, but my ideas and what might be best could be two different things.

So to start, my long term goal would be to increase the trunk size to at least 3". It's about 2" right now. I'm planning to repot it in a pond basket here in the next week or so. It has decent movement, but I could use advice for long term styling. I'm not planning on doing anything other than bud selection and letting it grow freely for the next year. I'm thinking towards the top using the top section as the sacrificial portion. I'm not sure whether to bud select that section or not or if it's better to choose a different leader. I've circled the section in red I'm planning to grow as the sacrificial. The portion circled in blue was the idea for the next leader for trunk line. I was planning to add movement to the left branch and the new leader with wire come winter time.

Does this plan sound like a decent plan? I'd love any suggestions! I'm just trying to do everything from completely ruining this tree.

 

[Shibui]

I'd be comfortable with your plan as a starting point. Note that as trees grow they also change so it is bets to remain flexible with plans in case something else emerges or the current plan becomes unviable for some reason.

It appears to be best to remove lower side shoots from sacrifice branches, even when that sacrifice branch is an apical shoot as you plan. Leaving dense branching shades the lower section which you really want to retain and growth there can be poor. Keeping competing branches away allows those branches to grow better.

You've used the term 'bud select' a couple of times but I'm not too sure what that means. It appears to be better to allow the sacrifice branch(es) to grow without any pruning or decandling or shoot selection except to make sure it does not overshadow the lower keepers.
The branches you want to keep can be pruned in order to maintain short growth and density where it will be needed. That lowest branch already has a quite long section out to the first sub branch but should be OK for a tree with 3" trunk.

 

[Adair M]

Forget the pond basket. If you want to increase the trunk, it needs more soil. Consider a wooden grow box. And let it grow. You don’t need to think about pruning, bud selecting, or any of all that. That’s refinement. You want growth. Put it in good coarse soil, fertilize and stand back. The only thing you might want to keep under control is the lowest branch.

These trees are grown to 15 feet tall:



But they keep the lower branches trimmed back to develop the keeper branches. Those sacrificial apex leaders are what puts on trunk.

 

[Apex37]

I'd be comfortable with your plan as a starting point. Note that as trees grow they also change so it is bets to remain flexible with plans in case something else emerges or the current plan becomes unviable for some reason.

It appears to be best to remove lower side shoots from sacrifice branches, even when that sacrifice branch is an apical shoot as you plan. Leaving dense branching shades the lower section which you really want to retain and growth there can be poor. Keeping competing branches away allows those branches to grow better.

You've used the term 'bud select' a couple of times but I'm not too sure what that means. It appears to be better to allow the sacrifice branch(es) to grow without any pruning or decandling or shoot selection except to make sure it does not overshadow the lower keepers.
The branches you want to keep can be pruned in order to maintain short growth and density where it will be needed. That lowest branch already has a quite long section out to the first sub branch but should be OK for a tree with 3" trunk.

Hey thanks for the reply Shibui! Definitely good point on the sacrifice branch. That makes total sense trimming it to 2 not to shade out the lower branches. I agree that the left branch was a bit long, but ultimately I'm not opposed to it being larger.

 

[Apex37]

Forget the pond basket. If you want to increase the trunk, it needs more soil. Consider a wooden grow box. And let it grow. You don’t need to think about pruning, bud selecting, or any of all that. That’s refinement. You want growth. Put it in good coarse soil, fertilize and stand back. The only thing you might want to keep under control is the lowest branch.

These trees are grown to 15 feet tall:

View attachment 422448

But they keep the lower branches trimmed back to develop the keeper branches. Those sacrificial apex leaders are what puts on trunk.

If I could I would plant in the ground, but unfortunately I don't have the room and we rent and can't dig up the backyard. I was actually debating on putting it in an Anderson flat instead of a pond basket and you confirmed my decision. Thanks Adair!

 

[Potawatomi13]

If I could I would plant in the ground, but unfortunately I don't have the room and we rent and can't dig up the backyard. I was actually debating on putting it in an Anderson flat instead of a pond basket and you confirmed my decision. Thanks Adair!

Personally see most of present tree as useable. No removal as a good thing. Wood grow box would be better. Anderson flat flex when handling, solid box does not. Easier on roots if moving tree.

 

[Adair M]

If I could I would plant in the ground, but unfortunately I don't have the room and we rent and can't dig up the backyard. I was actually debating on putting it in an Anderson flat instead of a pond basket and you confirmed my decision. Thanks Adair!

Those trees i pictured were grown at Telperion Farms. Before the fire. They grew them in ”root bags”. These were filled with their grow mix, then sunk in the ground. But, a wooden box would do much the same thing. Wood is a natural insulator, and doesn’t “get hot” sitting in the sun. This would make the soil temperature much more like what it would be if they were planted in the ground.

 

[Apex37]

Those trees i pictured were grown at Telperion Farms. Before the fire. They grew them in ”root bags”. These were filled with their grow mix, then sunk in the ground. But, a wooden box would do much the same thing. Wood is a natural insulator, and doesn’t “get hot” sitting in the sun. This would make the soil temperature much more like what it would be if they were planted in the ground.

I've never built one before, but I'm definitely down to learn! What do you guys use as the mesh for the bottom?

On the note of Telperion, I remember reading on here about the fires a couple years back taking over there farm. I was really sad because I know how much they've provided to the community. Any idea if they restarted?

 

[Shibui]

I've never built one before, but I'm definitely down to learn! What do you guys use as the mesh for the bottom?

My grow boxes have boards as the base. There's plenty of spaces between the boards to allow adequate drainage.

 

[Potawatomi13]

I've never built one before, but I'm definitely down to learn! What do you guys use as the mesh for the bottom?

On the note of Telperion, I remember reading on here about the fires a couple years back taking over there farm. I was really sad because I know how much they've provided to the community. Any idea if they restarted?

No. Chris and Lisa have retired now.

 

[KiwiPlantGuy]

Hi,
Here’s my box, and design from someone here who I can’t remember. I use treated pine fence palings, cut to whatever size. These palings are either 1/2 or 1 inch thick and stripped length ways to reduce from 6 to 4 inches etc. Been happily together for about four years now.
Hope this helps,
Charles

And I forgot that I use insect screen, but a bit difficult to pry the roots away from the mesh sometimes.

 

[xwintersgloomx]

Forget the pond basket. If you want to increase the trunk, it needs more soil. Consider a wooden grow box. And let it grow. You don’t need to think about pruning, bud selecting, or any of all that. That’s refinement. You want growth. Put it in good coarse soil, fertilize and stand back. The only thing you might want to keep under control is the lowest branch.

These trees are grown to 15 feet tall:

View attachment 422448

But they keep the lower branches trimmed back to develop the keeper branches. Those sacrificial apex leaders are what puts on trunk.

What would the timing be of the trimming on the lower branching?

 

[Adair M]

What would the timing be of the trimming on the lower branching?

It’s not critical. I guess you could decandle them, Telperion didn’t decandle, they just pruned them back.s. The tree should be in the grow box for several years to thicken the trunk.

 

[xwintersgloomx]

It’s not critical. I guess you could decandle them, Telperion didn’t decandle, they just pruned them back.s. The tree should be in the grow box for several years to thicken the trunk.

I was wondering if it was as, it seems species dependent it could be pruned back in autumn as well with good results with back budding. Thanks for the response!

 

[Adair M]

I was wondering if it was as, it seems species dependent it could be pruned back in autumn as well with good results with back budding. Thanks for the response!

I think the reason they didn’t decandle them was the time factor. They were a commercial nursery. They didn’t have the time to decandle all those trees they had in the ground. Hacking them back from time to time worked well enough for their purposes. If, however, you only have one or two trees in grow boxes, there’s no reason not to take the time to decandle at the right time, and you can wire the lower branches, too. You would be that much farther ahead.

 

[MaciekA]

I think for anyone with a climate like Oregon's (or milder), where JBP roots are often actively growing root tips in early January (I'm making a case for not worrying about the thermal assist from the ground), the specifically-relevant parts of the telperion grow methods are, .... if you strip it allll down to the essentials:

• The use of escape/sacrifice branches (like in @Adair M 's photo above)
• The use of escape/sacrifice roots (note that I don't specifically mention the ground, more on this below)
• Very deliberate growth management of both of the above two types of growth (escaping roots + escaping branches)

@Apex37 , you should study photos like the ones Adair posted very carefully.

Here are some I've taken in a similar theme:

• https://imgur.com/a/tLgv1Tg

  (telfarms, post fire)

• https://imgur.com/a/Z4yqNlp

  (Hagedorn's garden)

• https://imgur.com/a/oZielUc

  (Hagedorn's garden)

There are some JBP trunk growers on this forum, on instagram, and elsewhere that can help you understand what that trunk growing phase growth management looks like. I recommend articles about developmental growth management on the Bonsai Tonight blog, where there are many good pictures of pines in the process of trunk construction (JBP and otherwise). Eric from Bonsaify has also written and made videos about this topic in the past.

Regarding the second "ingredient", escape/sacrifice roots, know that you are not urgently constrained to using the ground to benefit from this technique. You can stack your containers. I'm in a space-limited grow setup where I can't put everything in the ground, and have used container stacking with several pines and it works very well. There are some growers who use container stacking even in professional bonsai, most notably Kazuo Onuma (probably many others do this, but Jonas took some nice clear pictures for these posts...):

Onuma's mini-sized bonsai - Bonsai Tonight

Photos from a visit to the amazing garden of Kazuo Onuma in Shizuoka, Japan.

bonsaitonight.com

Onuma's mini-bonsai growing techniques - Bonsai Tonight

Growing techniques from Kazuo Onuma for developing chojubai, shimpaku juniper, and Japanese maple.

bonsaitonight.com

Onuma also has an instagram account where you can see huge numbers of projects using stacked containers and pure lava and getting a lot of very nice growth out of it. The ground still has an edge for many other reasons (thermal, ecosystem, very tall capillary column, etc), but the ground isn't magic either: a long root is a long root.

 

[Apex37]

I think for anyone with a climate like Oregon's (or milder), where JBP roots are often actively growing root tips in early January (I'm making a case for not worrying about the thermal assist from the ground), the specifically-relevant parts of the telperion grow methods are, .... if you strip it allll down to the essentials:

• The use of escape/sacrifice branches (like in @Adair M 's photo above)
• The use of escape/sacrifice roots (note that I don't specifically mention the ground, more on this below)
• Very deliberate growth management of both of the above two types of growth (escaping roots + escaping branches)

@Apex37 , you should study photos like the ones Adair posted very carefully.

Here are some I've taken in a similar theme:

• https://imgur.com/a/tLgv1Tg

  (telfarms, post fire)

• https://imgur.com/a/Z4yqNlp

  (Hagedorn's garden)

• https://imgur.com/a/oZielUc

  (Hagedorn's garden)

There are some JBP trunk growers on this forum, on instagram, and elsewhere that can help you understand what that trunk growing phase growth management looks like. I recommend articles about developmental growth management on the Bonsai Tonight blog, where there are many good pictures of pines in the process of trunk construction (JBP and otherwise). Eric from Bonsaify has also written and made videos about this topic in the past.

Regarding the second "ingredient", escape/sacrifice roots, know that you are not urgently constrained to using the ground to benefit from this technique. You can stack your containers. I'm in a space-limited grow setup where I can't put everything in the ground, and have used container stacking with several pines and it works very well. There are some growers who use container stacking even in professional bonsai, most notably Kazuo Onuma (probably many others do this, but Jonas took some nice clear pictures for these posts...):

Onuma's mini-sized bonsai - Bonsai Tonight

Photos from a visit to the amazing garden of Kazuo Onuma in Shizuoka, Japan.

bonsaitonight.com

Onuma's mini-bonsai growing techniques - Bonsai Tonight

Growing techniques from Kazuo Onuma for developing chojubai, shimpaku juniper, and Japanese maple.

bonsaitonight.com

Onuma also has an instagram account where you can see huge numbers of projects using stacked containers and pure lava and getting a lot of very nice growth out of it. The ground still has an edge for many other reasons (thermal, ecosystem, very tall capillary column, etc), but the ground isn't magic either: a long root is a long root.

Lots of great points here!
I've been going through a few longer threads here on trunk development as well as reading through Harry Harrington's online blog bonsai4me on pine development and pruning and taking lots of notes.

I decided to go the wood grow box route and bought a cedar fence board I'm going to make into a box this weekend. I'll try and update pics once everything is built and replanted.

 

[Apex37]

Finally got time to finish building a grow box repotting this guy!