Eric Group

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You have an enthusiasm and tenacity that will go places. You can continue going the way you are going and over time figure things out or you can seek some instruction and training. I was thinking about the very subject earlier today, it is possible with the current state of the art that a determined person could learn how to do bonsai well in a few short years. Learning and developing the art could take a bit longer. However the problem with the art thing is that it is limited by the plant thing. Often we don't have the courage to make attempts to make a bonsai. In my early years everyone believed we had to grow our trees into bonsai when the actual truth was, and still is, that most good bonsai are the products of larger trees being cut down into bonsai. The reason is in the cut down method we are able to take advantage of larger trunks and mature looking branches that are made impressive and old looking when cut down to a smaller tree. A teacher will help you in putting these kind of things in proportions. There are some decent teachers in your area you might want to take advantage of.

The point of how this relates to what you are doing is simply this. Your are attracted to the Procumbens Juniper because of the wonderful full foliage that look mature and what you see of bonsai in the pictures. However Procumbens Junipers, have lousy, small and feeble trunks. They have to have a good deal of age on them to develope a trunk worth the effort to make one into a bonsai. I do not wish to discourage your efforts, I hope you will continue to design bonsai it is the only way to master that which you have learned, but advance to larger and diverse trees. Many of the sub-species of the Chines Juniper family have some really nice trees that make great bonsai. You ought to try some of them.

While what you say is true- pro nana is a very dwarfed variety and takes YEAAAARRRSSS to grow a big trunk- that simply means it is generally not suitable for larger bonsai... For Shohin sized trees, pro nana make a fine "cute" little bonsai and are especially good for beginers IMO due to their "bullet proof" nature and forgiving foliage... It is just fun sometimes to grab one for $5-10 bucks, work it for a couple hours and have a true "instant bonsai"! While it may not produce Kokufu worthy masterpieces, it can help someone develop their "eye" and get used to taking steps that lead to a better looking tree, great for practicing wiring and creating Jins...

I totally agree though- long term, you will get better trees from Shimpaku and related varieties usually.

All that said... Please take no offense Vance but I cannot help but point out the irony in you making these statements about Pro- Nana having small trunks and taking years to produce "bonsai worthy" trunks when you have become known here as someone who focuses a lot of attention on Mugo Pine bonsai from nursery stock! One could easily say the same for Mugo in relation to other Pines I think! LOL :)
 

Vance Wood

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Please take no offense and with all due respects if I suggest your head is full of donkey poo. Did that insult you with or without the obligatory "Don't take this as an insult" prelude to a comment?

My purpose in telling VAFisher what I told him was to furnish him with the truth. I did not read any practical or constructive suggestions authored by you that might help him grow. I would suggest that it is pretty difficult to look through the literature and find more than one show quality Procumbens Juniper, on the other hand; if you search the European sources you will finds dozens of show quality Mugo Pines.

As to my use of nursery Mugos; I don't know why you and several others seemed to be so focused on that issue but let me tell you if I could get my hands on Yamadori Mugos I would. Having said that what does it have to do with the Procumbens issue any way. While we're at it, I don't consider Procumbens as bullet proof tree as you suggest by any stretch. Someone who does not know about the tree can kill one pretty quick. As to what I now believe is your attempt to use clever language and the use of emojis to offer me the middle finger salutation??? You know where you can stick that one, all the way up to the last knuckle. You get the idea. Don't take any offense just an observation.
 

VAFisher

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You have an enthusiasm and tenacity that will go places. You can continue going the way you are going and over time figure things out or you can seek some instruction and training. I was thinking about the very subject earlier today, it is possible with the current state of the art that a determined person could learn how to do bonsai well in a few short years. Learning and developing the art could take a bit longer. However the problem with the art thing is that it is limited by the plant thing. Often we don't have the courage to make attempts to make a bonsai. In my early years everyone believed we had to grow our trees into bonsai when the actual truth was, and still is, that most good bonsai are the products of larger trees being cut down into bonsai. The reason is in the cut down method we are able to take advantage of larger trunks and mature looking branches that are made impressive and old looking when cut down to a smaller tree. A teacher will help you in putting these kind of things in proportions. There are some decent teachers in your area you might want to take advantage of.

The point of how this relates to what you are doing is simply this. Your are attracted to the Procumbens Juniper because of the wonderful full foliage that look mature and what you see of bonsai in the pictures. However Procumbens Junipers, have lousy, small and feeble trunks. They have to have a good deal of age on them to develope a trunk worth the effort to make one into a bonsai. I do not wish to discourage your efforts, I hope you will continue to design bonsai it is the only way to master that which you have learned, but advance to larger and diverse trees. Many of the sub-species of the Chines Juniper family have some really nice trees that make great bonsai. You ought to try some of them.

Hi Vance, It wasn't clear that your comment was directed towards me but I see from your post above that it was. No offense taken by me and I appreciate the comment about enthusiasm and tenacity. Those are traits that can drive my new bride crazy at times. I agree that most good bonsai are made by cutting down a larger tree with a larger trunk and I'm actually not all that attracted to Procumbens Juniper. I have these 3 that were purchased kind of spur of the moment and I've killed 1. I also like to work with a diverse range of trees as you suggest. Currently, I have in my collection: Azalea, Japanese Maple, Trident Maple, Red Maple, Sweetgum, Camelia, Riverflat Hawthorn, Crape Myrtle, American Elm, Water Elm, Chinese Elm, Pro Nana Juniper, Sargeant Juniper, Shimpaku Juniper, Eastern Red Cedar, Eastern Hemlock, Colorado Blue Spruce, Scots Pine, Mugo Pine and Virginia Pine. To be sure, there are some questionable species for bonsai in that list but I'm having fun with them. You're also definitely right about a formal teacher but I also have Vance Wood, BVF, johng, Mach5, Smoke, Adair, markyscott, JudyB etc, at my disposal at all times.
 

0soyoung

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I ripped this one out of my landscape in August 2010 to make room for a shishi gashira. It has been in this pot of Turface MVP since 2012. I trimmed the foliage just a few days ago (19 June).
It now seems to move to the left, so I'm thinking about removing a few small branches on the right side (as in the second photo) later this season (maybe this August) - maybe even a bit more.

Pro_2016-06-19.jpg Pro_2016-06-19_mayB.jpg

It does have a heavy 4+ inch trunk underneath, but it isn't particularly interesting. I will likely reconsider featuring the trunk when I repot it in another season or two. Meanwhile ...
 

sorce

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I don't know

I think he was just saying....

You take time to grow some trunks.
They are nice and he respects the time it takes....

So why not with a nana?

I think....

What I know....

I can't grow nana branches....let alone trunks!

Someone who does not know about the tree can kill one pretty quick.

I am that guy.

Sorce
 

Eric Group

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Please take no offense and with all due respects if I suggest your head is full of donkey poo. Did that insult you with or without the obligatory "Don't take this as an insult" prelude to a comment?

My purpose in telling VAFisher what I told him was to furnish him with the truth. I did not read any practical or constructive suggestions authored by you that might help him grow. I would suggest that it is pretty difficult to look through the literature and find more than one show quality Procumbens Juniper, on the other hand; if you search the European sources you will finds dozens of show quality Mugo Pines.

As to my use of nursery Mugos; I don't know why you and several others seemed to be so focused on that issue but let me tell you if I could get my hands on Yamadori Mugos I would. Having said that what does it have to do with the Procumbens issue any way. While we're at it, I don't consider Procumbens as bullet proof tree as you suggest by any stretch. Someone who does not know about the tree can kill one pretty quick. As to what I now believe is your attempt to use clever language and the use of emojis to offer me the middle finger salutation??? You know where you can stick that one, all the way up to the last knuckle. You get the idea. Don't take any offense just an observation.
Well that was completely uncalled for. Not sure why you feel the need to take discussions of TREES to the level of telling people to stick stuff up their asses, but we all have our own ways of expressing ourselves I suppose. My response to you was in no way a middle finger type response and I made my comparison of Mugo to Procumbens quite clear.
Both dwarf varieties that when grown in pots their whole lives tend to not grow large trunks, both evergreens, both not considered by most to be top flight bonsai material unless collected wild as a massive Yamadori specimen, both easily molded into a "cute" little "instant Bonsai" tree because of their dwarfed compact growth habit... I could go on, but I suspect you wouldn't read it now as you didn't read it before. Clearly you just saw someone said something you could construe as disagreeing with you and went strait into attack mode. Whatever man. I suggest you go back and read my first post again as there was nothing but good natured thoughtful comparison implied in that post. If you disagree and take offense to such a degree I think there is something more going on here than you being mad about what I typed. What that is I have NO idea but I don't come to this site for this kind of drama and my ass is exit only thank you very much.

As to show quality Procumbens, I have seen more of them in America than I have seen show quality Mugo. I was reading through Bill V's wonderful "Classical Bonsai" book again yesterday on a road trip and noticed he has a VERY nice one on display in that book. To avoid others attacking me for copyright infringement I will refrain from posting a pic here but is is a perfect example of the quality you can get from a good pro nana specimen.

Your point is well made about their ability to be quickly killed by a beginner incapable of provid insufficient care. As is the case with any species of tree, or children, dogs, GOLDFISH... If not now like water, "food"... They can all quickly perish. :)
 

Vance Wood

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I ripped this one out of my landscape in August 2010 to make room for a shishi gashira. It has been in this pot of Turface MVP since 2012. I trimmed the foliage just a few days ago (19 June).
It now seems to move to the left, so I'm thinking about removing a few small branches on the right side (as in the second photo) later this season (maybe this August) - maybe even a bit more.

View attachment 109292 View attachment 109293

It does have a heavy 4+ inch trunk underneath, but it isn't particularly interesting. I will likely reconsider featuring the trunk when I repot it in another season or two. Meanwhile ...
A relitively uninteresting trunk at four inches is far better to exhibit than a one inch trunk twisted around a twinky. A four inch trunk has got to provide some sort of artistic option that can be capitalized on to make a decent bonsai. The shorter the tree in relation to the fatter the trunk usually makes for a first rate bonsai.
 

ColinFraser

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Fun thread idea; thanks.
Here's a nursery pickup I've been fussing with for a while.

View attachment 106938

I'm not sure which one of these it will end up in:

View attachment 106939
Here’s an update on this one . . . time for some detail wiring methinks.

B2780D11-68FF-48B2-A651-4F5816BD91F1.jpeg E4A9CBCA-9ECF-4CC4-9223-319FAE1E01EE.jpeg

6B1BCC13-EEA0-4C37-8A90-D611CD787ED0.jpeg

I think it’s coming along in the year and a half since the last post.
 

0soyoung

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I ripped this one out of my landscape in August 2010 to make room for a shishi gashira. It has been in this pot of Turface MVP since 2012. I trimmed the foliage just a few days ago (19 June).
It now seems to move to the left, so I'm thinking about removing a few small branches on the right side (as in the second photo) later this season (maybe this August) - maybe even a bit more.

View attachment 109292 View attachment 109293

It does have a heavy 4+ inch trunk underneath, but it isn't particularly interesting. I will likely reconsider featuring the trunk when I repot it in another season or two. Meanwhile ...
I did remove a few small branches, made their remains into jins, and repotted early this past September.

2017-09-10 15.15.32.jpg
 

LanceMac10

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Hot lil' package!!!! One stout muthatruker'.....;):D:D:D:D


Container seems to diminish the tree's dimensions......what do you think, something a bit smaller, more angular for show?


Like this one, "juvenile" foliage works......:)


Cool beans!!:cool::cool::cool:
 

0soyoung

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Container seems to diminish the tree's dimensions......what do you think, something a bit smaller, more angular for show?
Do you mean a rectangle about the same size (x, y) as the cascade pot it was in originally, but about the same depth as this bag?
 

LanceMac10

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Do you mean a rectangle about the same size (x, y) as the cascade pot it was in originally, but about the same depth as this bag?




Perhaps. Seems the "bag" shape is maybe too bulbous....nice if the tree were taller, but seems a little "out of scale"....if that makes sense.:confused::D:D:D:D:D
 

0soyoung

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Perhaps. Seems the "bag" shape is maybe too bulbous....nice if the tree were taller, but seems a little "out of scale"....if that makes sense.:confused::D:D:D:D:D
IMHO, I need to bring the canopy in a bit. Then I don't think it will seem quite so squat.

The wide pot down-plays the trunk to the point that it is seems to be a little peg. A narrower pot would make the trunk seem more 'substantial'. And this leads to the canopy 'needing' to be still narrower. Given that it just a smidge over 8 inches tall, this 'do-loop' might eventually lead to it becoming a powerful shohin. But, at this point, I'm not sure that I can really do this. So meanwhile .... :p;)

Am I getting it or am I off in the weeds from what you're trying to tell me?

Again,
Thanks for bearing with :)
 

Toraidento

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Picked this up over the weekend. I'm still learning so is it ok to do some light pruning this late in the year? I did a little when I got home e from work today dead branches mainly. I live in Savannah GA zone 8b
 

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0soyoung

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Picked this up over the weekend. I'm still learning so is it ok to do some light pruning this late in the year? I did a little when I got home e from work today dead branches mainly. I live in Savannah GA zone 8b
IMO, your progress will be faster if you leave it be until spring (i.e., when you see the tips turning light green and starting to extend). You could work on it now, but reducing the foliage now will just serve to weaken the tree. You might want that some day, but not now --> be patient; meanwhile think about what you are going to make of it = develop a design plan.
 

Haoleboy

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Here's one I picked up today. $9. Lots of branching to work with. Not sure of the direction I'm gonna go with it.

I've never had a Nana before. This is the first I've seen that I actually liked. Trunk is about 2". Not much movement down low on the trunk, but eh. I'm excited to work with it. 1204171845.jpg 1204171846c.jpg 1204171846a.jpg
 

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music~maker

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Here's one that I started as a sapling in June 2010:

This is the same tree in August 2017:

This is one I often show people who are learning how to develop these. I mostly just let it grow each year, and strategically make very small changes from time to time. There have been multiple years where I pruned nothing. It's been re-potted back into this pot once since I started it.

Basically, I've been slowly but surely building out the exact pre-bonsai material that I wanted to work on. It's due for a decent styling, but I probably won't touch it until the spring.

It's hard to capture in photos, but there's actually a lot of depth and ramification to this one when you view it in person, and it's especially apparent if you shine a light through it at night. And fwiw, it's never once been "mowed". Every so often I'll just shorten a branch or two, and then let it keep going. The work I've done on it over the years should become much more apparent the next time I thoroughly prune and wire it.

The full history with tons of pics is here in case anyone is curious to see more:

https://www.reddit.com/r/Bonsai/comments/2ksckd/juniper_history_20102014/
https://www.reddit.com/r/Bonsai/comments/5qi1b6/juniper_update_spring_2015_winter_2017/
https://www.reddit.com/r/Bonsai/comments/6x3y5f/juniper_late_summer_2017/
 
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