The Only Finished Bonsai is a Dead Bonsai

[wireme]

The problem you are going to have is very much like those I had with Mugos, no reliable source of information. Let me know what you are finding out.

As far as Doug fir techniques you mean?
I experiment with different pruning methods and such and have theories and ideas but really they seem to respond similar enough to spruce that I'm sure a person could just follow established spruce methods and do just fine.

 

[Vance Wood]

As far as Doug fir techniques you mean?
I experiment with different pruning methods and such and have theories and ideas but really they seem to respond similar enough to spruce that I'm sure a person could just follow established spruce methods and do just fine.

From the experience I had with them when I lived in California that was my experience. What you are going to have to watch for is timing of procedures to ensure maximum back budding. Back when I had a really nice collected tree back budding was never much of a subject any of us knew much about. 1960"s

 

[wireme]

From the experience I had with them when I lived in California that was my experience. What you are going to have to watch for is timing of procedures to ensure maximum back budding. Back when I had a really nice collected tree back budding was never much of a subject any of us knew much about. 1960"s

I think you're right about timing. This season I tried something different with my doug firs including the one pictured earlier. Less springtime pruning, more bud removal after first flush and during new budset, kind of an elaborate method and hard to describe but luckily I won't have to because it didn't work! Far less back budding than I normally have, 3 trees all the same. Pruning as hard as possible/prudent in the early spring has given me the best results so far. Once I get more into the refinement stage I think I will also be twisting off elongating buds more than I have been.

 

[Potawatomi13]

That is marginally true but; if you don't make the effort nothing will change. Over time most trees will develop as to accent their flaws. They usually don't get better in time, at best they may stay in some sort of status quo. Most of the trees I have taken the time to redesign over the last few years have gotten to a point where the flaws, I was able to ignore, now bother me. I can't speak for anyone else I can only speak for me. As to other people? I don't know everyone has their own way of dealing with this kind of stuff from tossing out a flawed tree to several options less final.

Statement more than marginally true! I am also perfectionist in personal work. Completely true if seen from correct direction.

 

[Vance Wood]

I think you're right about timing. This season I tried something different with my doug firs including the one pictured earlier. Less springtime pruning, more bud removal after first flush and during new budset, kind of an elaborate method and hard to describe but luckily I won't have to because it didn't work! Far less back budding than I normally have, 3 trees all the same. Pruning as hard as possible/prudent in the early spring has given me the best results so far. Once I get more into the refinement stage I think I will also be twisting off elongating buds more than I have been.

I was thinking about this last evening. I remember from my collected Doug what I did with it. I don't know if I could possible describe what I did do and make it understandable so if you would let me know this nest spring I can give you a video detailing the process on a Spruce which should be treated the same way.

 

[wireme]

I was thinking about this last evening. I remember from my collected Doug what I did with it. I don't know if I could possible describe what I did do and make it understandable so if you would let me know this nest spring I can give you a video detailing the process on a Spruce which should be treated the same way.

Sure, I'd be very interested in what you did and what you do with your spruce, spring is a ways off though and you I'm curious now, how about giving it a shot in words?

 

[Vance Wood]

Spruce, Larch, and in my opinion Doug Firs need to be pinched in spring. See there ya go, there's that word again; "Pinched". In this case it cannot be done with scissors because it really does depend on snapping the new growth off at a weak point as opposed to cutting it off and leaving a tip to brown. In the spring the three mentioned species put fort the initial growth from the bud with something that looks more like an artist's paint brush. Then it will do a lot like a Pine, it will expand and elongate but the needles are present and not emerging as in a Pine. So while the new growth is in the paint brush stage you pinch it, or more precisely, break it off cleanly at a point above where the new growth begins. The new growth extends into the paint brush stage usually about an inch or two in length; it is supported at the base with the thumb and index finger of one hand and the end is grasped between the thumb and index finger of the opposing hand, making sure that you are not holding needles attached to the portion of the growth that is to remain, and it is pulled straight out. Sometimes you will get a needle or two as mentioned previously that will tear and leave a couple of brown needles that will in a couple of weeks fall away. However if you do this at the right time the new growth snaps off like fresh vegetables. If you wait too long they tear. In a couple of weeks new buds will develop below the point where the new growth began in the spring. Results with Larch can be really spectacular.

 

[wireme]

Spruce, Larch, and in my opinion Doug Firs need to be pinched in spring. See there ya go, there's that word again; "Pinched". In this case it cannot be done with scissors because it really does depend on snapping the new growth off at a weak point as opposed to cutting it off and leaving a tip to brown. In the spring the three mentioned species put fort the initial growth from the bud with something that looks more like an artist's paint brush. Then it will do a lot like a Pine, it will expand and elongate but the needles are present and not emerging as in a Pine. So while the new growth is in the paint brush stage you pinch it, or more precisely, break it off cleanly at a point above where the new growth begins. The new growth extends into the paint brush stage usually about an inch or two in length; it is supported at the base with the thumb and index finger of one hand and the end is grasped between the thumb and index finger of the opposing hand, making sure that you are not holding needles attached to the portion of the growth that is to remain, and it is pulled straight out. Sometimes you will get a needle or two as mentioned previously that will tear and leave a couple of brown needles that will in a couple of weeks fall away. However if you do this at the right time the new growth snaps off like fresh vegetables. If you wait too long they tear. In a couple of weeks new buds will develop below the point where the new growth began in the spring. Results with Larch can be really spectacular.

Yes, I know exactly what you mean, precisely what I meant I would be going back to doing at the refinement stage. I've found that method great for ramification at the branch ends but just ok for back budding on older wood. Depending on variables I've found that allowing growth to extend beyond the design and pruning off woody growth in spring can have better results to induce back buds on older wood. It's easy to thicken a branch out of proportion this way though. I'm sure I will continue with slight adjustments to different methods for some years yet before settling on a set approach.

 

[Leo in N E Illinois]

Thanks Vance & Wire me - printed this page and filed it under "Spruce Techniques".

 

[coh]

Yes, I know exactly what you mean, precisely what I meant I would be going back to doing at the refinement stage. I've found that method great for ramification at the branch ends but just ok for back budding on older wood. Depending on variables I've found that allowing growth to extend beyond the design and pruning off woody growth in spring can have better results to induce back buds on older wood. It's easy to thicken a branch out of proportion this way though. I'm sure I will continue with slight adjustments to different methods for some years yet before settling on a set approach.

Interesting. I've been working with an Engleman spruce for a few years now. Have been dutifully pinching the new growth in the spring (leaving about a third of each "candle") but that was only giving me limited backbudding....as you note, it increased ramification near the branch tips but didn't help with the developing legginess. This spring I decided to take a risk and do a harder cut-back before any of the new growth started. This entailed removing a lot of the spring buds. I tried to leave at least 1 bud on every branch, but there were a few that were cut back far enough that all buds were removed (but there were still needles).

Well, I got a LOT more backbudding to develop. Those new buds didn't open this year, but it looks like I'll have a pretty strong surge with lots more options next spring.

Chris

 

[wireme]

Interesting. I've been working with an Engleman spruce for a few years now. Have been dutifully pinching the new growth in the spring (leaving about a third of each "candle") but that was only giving me limited backbudding....as you note, it increased ramification near the branch tips but didn't help with the developing legginess. This spring I decided to take a risk and do a harder cut-back before any of the new growth started. This entailed removing a lot of the spring buds. I tried to leave at least 1 bud on every branch, but there were a few that were cut back far enough that all buds were removed (but there were still needles).

Well, I got a LOT more backbudding to develop. Those new buds didn't open this year, but it looks like I'll have a pretty strong surge with lots more options next spring.

Chris

Hey, nice to hear, exactly my experience so far too.
Pretty similar in theory to the never pinch juniper approach if you think about it, let them build up some steam then cut back harder kind of thing.

And those branches with needles but no buds still developed new buds for next year too didn't they?

 

[Adair M]

Hey, nice to hear, exactly my experience so far too.
Pretty similar in theory to the never pinch juniper approach if you think about it, let them build up some steam then cut back harder kind of thing.

And those branches with needles but no buds still developed new buds for next year too didn't they?

Exactly!!!

This is another one of those techniques that was taught and been around forever, but a better technique has been found to replace it.

In fact, as recently as a year and s half ago, I took a workshop with Larry Jackel, who is supposed to be the guru of Colorado Blue Spruce and Ponderosa. He taught the exact method Vance described. Doing so did produce new buds at the base of the pinched shoots. I THOUGHT it worked great! But...

I told Boon what I was taught was by Jackel, and Boon shook his head and said, "Old technique. No pinch spruce. Let grow and cut back is better." And he led me over to one done his way, and there was a LOT more backbudding. Buds were popping back on old wood closer to the trunk.

So... It is another case where "pinching" has been replaced with "let grow and cut back".

 

[coh]

Hey, nice to hear, exactly my experience so far too.
Pretty similar in theory to the never pinch juniper approach if you think about it, let them build up some steam then cut back harder kind of thing.

And those branches with needles but no buds still developed new buds for next year too didn't they?

Yes, it doesn't look like I lost any branches. Of course, the true test will be in the spring, all those buds still need to open and grow...but I'm a lot more optimistic about the future for the tree than I was in the spring.

It seriously needs a repot, too, and that will be done in the spring.

 

[M. Frary]

This is old news if you've ever been around a Christmas tree farm. In the summer after the new growth is fully extended but before it hardens off and sets buds they cut all of the branch tips growing outside of the desired silhouette with machetes. This forces backbudding so the tree will be thick and full.

 

[sorce]

Thanks Vance & Wire me - printed this page and filed it under "Spruce Techniques".

@BobbyLane if Leo saved this info....
I didn't want you to miss it!

Love that spruce!

Sorce

 

[BobbyLane]

@BobbyLane if Leo saved this info....
I didn't want you to miss it!

Love that spruce!

Sorce

Mines gone mate, i actually sold it a few days ago. It was just too big for my balcony and i'd been keeping it in my allotment. and the Spruce bug has now passed, its amazing how in bonsai you can be crazy for a species one minute and something else the next, now my love is for Taxus (i have 3) and native species only and shohin as space is limited.

Thanks though mate, i still have a Shohin Spruce thats growing a bit wild atm, maybe ill show it next year when its a little more presentable. its a genuine picea abies and is more vigorous than the Glauca that i had.
Thread now being watched! Cheers