turface only?

[subnet_rx]

It's definitely an interesting discussion. I've had mixed findings after the past year. A juniper in 80/20 turface/sphagum that I just repotted had a terrible root system. A lorepetalum in pure turface was pot bound after a year after I planted it in an oversized pot. i do think people are a little too concerned about root rot in the bonsai world. And maybe it's deservedly so since you would gladly give up some growth in exchange for less chance of branch dieback.

 

[cquinn]

a little experiment carried out in '06

article

Where in this study did you use/compare Warren's mix? I'm confused.

 

[meushi]

I use something close to turface, it works fine used 100% pure for the trees I grow in my climate. However I cheat a bit by feeding with a lot of solid organic fertilizer (cow dung based) early in the season... I then end up with some humus in the mix to retain more water during the dry season. Said humus is usually totally gone by the end of summer when it starts heavily raining again.

Cotoneaster seem to love that kind of treatment as they totally filled their pot in less than a year... I was able to lift the whole root ball off the pot after 6 months without a single grain falling.

 

[Mortalis]

Have you guys ever tried LECA its a clay product like turface except its puffed up and high fired.. Imaging red corn pops cereal.. Its light, does not compact, and never degrades.

 

[meushi]

Mortalis,

small diameter LECA works nicey, so does Seramis (high fired granular brick clay) if you can find it. The turface-ish substrate I use is actually very close to LECA but with less regular shape/colour.

Michael

 

[Mortalis]

The regularity of shape in LECA realy depends on the brand. I have some thats all almost a perfect sphere and some thats very irregular I really like both the same. I use the medium size except on my smallest trees.

 

[Rick Moquin]

Where in this study did you use/compare Warren's mix? I'm confused.

Pure granit

 

[cquinn]

Pure granit

I've never seen him put anything in pure granite.

 

[daniel]

Yeah, I thought Hill's mix was akadama, grit, and sphagnum?

At any rate, once I start to repot some plants, I'm going to use a 50-25-25 mix of the above. I will let everyone know of the results. Obviously not scientific, but worth something, I'd imagine...

 

[cquinn]

Yeah, I thought Hill's mix was akadama, grit, and sphagnum?

At any rate, once I start to repot some plants, I'm going to use a 50-25-25 mix of the above. I will let everyone know of the results. Obviously not scientific, but worth something, I'd imagine...

It is. I'm not sure where Rick got his information.

 

[Rick Moquin]

My bad. You're right wrt Hill's mix.

Because of his claims wrt calcinated clays or any other similar product and their CEC which retained unwanted salts and eventually led to the demise of trees. I wanted a totally inert medium that had no CEC. Sphagnum and akadama do have a CEC.

This was an unscientific study done at home and the findings and conclusions were reported in the article. The study was spurred over a conversation from an individual that attended one of Warren's lectures.

 

[Mortalis]

On the subject of salt buildup has anyone tried Clearex Salt Leaching Solution?

 

[cquinn]

On the subject of salt buildup has anyone tried Clearex Salt Leaching Solution?

With Warren's mix and organic fert. you don't have to worry about this or any other additives.

 

[Rick Moquin]

Quite untrue. Both ferts regardless will retain unwanted insoluble salts. This debate was ashed out a long time ago. It is the CEC of the substrate that will make a difference.

FWIW in modern bonsai substrate it is pretty hard to burn roots regardless of which you use. If you have a "modern" substrate this should not be a problem as the retention is minimal to non existent and will not occur if you follow the recommended dosage.

This has been discussed at length in the past with both Brent and Walter. In the conclusion of my article I did mention that the high sodium content of local water could be a factor. I never said it was. But if the test was conducted with inert water (Warren's tests) would the results be different.

I have my answers and I do not wish to debate ((already been debated to death in the past) when experts where still circulating the forums)) them with anyone. That is just like soil recipes, there isn't a magic one, just what works for you in your climate under your growing conditions.

Walter BTW believes Akadama to be poison in is neck of the woods.

 

[cquinn]

"the retention is minimal to non existent"

This one is kind of my point. The Japanese complain that Americans do not water enough nor fertilize enough. Trees need nutrients, they need a constant supply to be really thriving. Most people who get dead trees, complain that it was for this reason or that but really the trees are just weak from lack of nutrients. Hinokis are extremely tough for example. When one is really healthy, it can be repotted, wired, and even pruned a little to no ill effect. Hell, the past time while I was at Warrens there was a small Hinoki that someone had just left around his place. It had basically no soil, just a ball of roots in the pot, and had been that way all winter. I actually cut the roots, potted it up, watered it in, and it hasn't missed a beat. You would be amazed at what you can do when a tree is really thriving. I'll post a picture of my Hinoki when I get a chance soon. Like I said, people have already commented on the foliage color as opposed to one next to it at the same show. If you want to see what healthy trees look like, then take a look at Warren's website. www.warrenhillbonsai.com

 

[meushi]

Walter BTW believes Akadama to be poison in is neck of the woods.

In any place with wet cold winters, akadama (except double brand or kiln fired akadama) will start collapsing/compacting in less than a year. In those conditions, even double brand will have collapsed before 3 years have passed. If you live in a place with dry mild winters, akadama will last long enough to keep your trees healthy between two repottings.

As I live in an agreeably moist zone, I no longer use akadama and switched to baked clay. I got tired of having the bottom third of the pot turn into a compact mass 6 months after repotting.

 

[Rick Moquin]

A clarification here. When I stated the retention is minimal I meant the unwanted insoluble salts, not the ferts.

I have quite an aggressive feeding schedule from early March to late November there is no break during summer as some books profess. Other literature states to continue feeding right through summer with the exception of when trees are actually in bloom. The latter is found in many circles to include but not limited to orchids. Therefore when a tree starts to bloom I withhold feeding and resume soon thereafter. That being said the composition of ferts used varies with the seasons and species in general. e.g the NPK for flowering and non-flowering species etc...

My take on feeding in the Western world is that feeding hasn't kept with the times of substrate composition. The Japanese on the other hand always had a free flowing substrate. In many books we can still find substrate compositions to include loam etc...

I hope this helped clarify matters. SFII is a maintenance program. SFI is a aggressive building program.

 

[Rick Moquin]

In any place with wet cold winters, akadama (except double brand or kiln fired akadama) will start collapsing/compacting in less than a year. In those conditions, even double brand will have collapsed before 3 years have passed. If you live in a place with dry mild winters, akadama will last long enough to keep your trees healthy between two repottings.

As I live in an agreeably moist zone, I no longer use akadama and switched to baked clay. I got tired of having the bottom third of the pot turn into a compact mass 6 months after repotting.

Yup! the key is the region you find yourself in. Another point to note is that Walter repots his established bonsais about every 5 years or so. Some species require more frequent repotting but in general he will go 2-3 years on such species and by that time all brands of Akadama has collapsed.

I know I couldn't use it here, besides because it is unavailable the price would be prohibitive. Furthermore in my climate I cannot use grow boxes perse as the substrate remains too moist. Screen sided elevated containers seem to have eliminated that problem.

 

[Smoke]

A clarification here. When I stated the retention is minimal I meant the unwanted insoluble salts, not the ferts.

I have quite an aggressive feeding schedule from early March to late November there is no break during summer as some books profess. Other literature states to continue feeding right through summer with the exception of when trees are actually in bloom. The latter is found in many circles to include but not limited to orchids. Therefore when a tree starts to bloom I withhold feeding and resume soon thereafter. That being said the composition of ferts used varies with the seasons and species in general. e.g the NPK for flowering and non-flowering species etc...

My take on feeding in the Western world is that feeding hasn't kept with the times of substrate composition. The Japanese on the other hand always had a free flowing substrate. In many books we can still find substrate compositions to include loam etc...

I hope this helped clarify matters. SFII is a maintenance program. SFI is a aggressive building program.

The whole secret to the superfeeding regimen was not the amount of fertilizer that was used. It was the Roots 2 and the Roots 2 liquid with iron.

Roots 2 is not manufactured anymore. Roots 2 was a humas enriched fertilizer like Gro Power that I have been useing for 4 years now. Roots 2 was 10 percent humic acid and Gro Power is 14 percent humic acid. A superfeeding regimen is not superfeeding without the addition of humic acid to deliver to the roots all that is being offered to the plant to utilize. Organic fertilizers take massive amounts of bacteria to break down organics into useable compounds. Humic acid has been shown to build bacteria quickly to break down fertilizer compound as well as build michoyrizza(sp.) quickly.

Free flowing bonsai soils like we use now have poor CEC's like akadama. Most clay products have poor CEC. The addtion of the humic acid changes the polarity of the soil components to attract and capture the fertilizer ions and make them available to the plant. Without the addtion of humic acid or a fertilizer enriched with humic acid like Roots 2 or Gro Power the fertilizer will wash straight thru. It is impossible to superfeed useing Michael Persiano's formula with out the addition of the humic based fertlizer.

Ironically, the issue of Bonsai Today ( issue 46 )that introduced the world to Michael's superfeeding plan failed to mention that Roots 2 was a product that contained humic acid. For many years I am sure that many people made fertilizer cakes with the formula ommitting the Roots 2 due to availibility or cost. Had there been more of a focus on what actually was making the whole thing work could have changed bonsai as we know it 12 years ago.

As an aside, since I have been doing extensive research on humic based fertilizers for years, I have found this.

http://www.cababstractsplus.org/abstracts/Abstract.aspx?AcNo=20053112688

There are far too many to list so you can check them out yourself if needed. Over 12 years ago I found akadama to be a magical soil. When the issue of Bonsai Today ( issue 6 ) came out telling of akadama's poor CEC I was wondering what made the red clay soil work so well. I think that the volcanic clay soil from Japan may have additional humates already in the soil as retrieved and so fertilizers work well with akadama.

Humic acid is the new frontier in bonsai. Many organic based fertilizers are already containing small percentages of humic acid in their formula. The entire Kellogs line of fertlizers contains humic acid and many other organic based fertilzers are adding humates with names like " soil conditioning, soil enhancers, soil activators, etc. etc.

Tried not to steal this thread but humates are a very important part of the superfeeding regimen and the real hero was never talked about....untill now!

The photo's show pure humic acid as leonardite, Gropower granuals, gropower tablets, and some organic based kellogs fertlizer all containing humic acid. Not in picture is a humic acid solution I buy that can be diluted and just poured over the soil as a drench, which is basically the same stuff Michael used later in his fertlizer cakes as the Liquid Roots2 with iron.

Thanks, Al

 

[Rick Moquin]

The whole secret to the superfeeding regimen was not the amount of fertilizer that was used. It was the Roots 2 and the Roots 2 liquid with iron.

Al,

Thank you very much for your addendum, especially the enlightenment wrt the active ingredient of Roots 2. Although the addition of iron sulphate was widely known the Humic acid was not when dealing with fert make up.

Getting back to a feeding regimen, many to not feed enough for fear of toasting their trees. I will be on the look out for a brand that contains humic acid, as your brands are not available here. I doesn't really matter if it's Peter or Paul who makes it, providing key ingredients are found within. I use Plant Product for the majority of my fert needs as they are available here and contain all that is necessary.