Viable tree to purchase for a beginner?

[Dav4]

I have a Straight Acer Palmatum from some pre bonsai supplier, I can't remember who, but it still is grafted!!!?
I gave up looking after that...figure if I want one on it's own roots I'll air layer mine...
Or work on cuttings.

That doesn't make any sense... why graft A. palmatum to A. palmatum???? You've got a cultivar of some kind for sure.

 

[just.wing.it]

That doesn't make any sense... why graft A. palmatum to A. palmatum???? You've got a cultivar of some kind for sure.

I dunno, it has reddish orange spring color that quickly goes all green.
It was labeled Green Mountain Acer Palmatum if I recall...
I was wondering the same thing...??
Here's a picture of it right now.

 

[GailC]

I have a Straight Acer Palmatum from some pre bonsai supplier, I can't remember who, but it still is grafted!!!?
I gave up looking after that...figure if I want one on it's own roots I'll air layer mine...
Or work on cuttings.

What I was thinking about doing is finding some fancy variety that is grafted onto green rootstock and chop the cultivar off.

It's odd that straight green is used for rootstock but growers don't let it grow on its own roots.

 

[LanceMac10]

Are you sure it's grafted? @just.wing.it

 

[just.wing.it]

Are you sure it's grafted? @just.wing.it

Yes, the graft is low, and burried at this point, I went pretty hard on the roots a few weeks ago.
Don't have any pics.
It might not end up looking bad...
The lower part below the graft is already brown and barking up, above the graft, it's all green still...and it was like that all last year.
I picked this one up in early spring last year.

 

[Japonicus]

Tough to tell from the photos. But if I needed to give you an answer based on what I see, I would try and consider a kabudachi style bonsai by air layering right below where all those trunks seem to meet. It is strange right now to have such a short trunk with less than a desirable nebari with all those branches coming out from the same point about 2" up.

Thanks MACH5. I’m afraid to make an attempt at layering it would mean its demise in my care.
So the heavy landscape root base is a 2nd strike against the tree, 1 being the squat trunk
2 the nebari, 3 crotch rot atop the trunk, and 4, multiple trunks. That sucks.

If I were to forego the layering aspect, and still go for a kabudachi style...
should I chop the existing multiple trunks off and remove the rotten wood there, now
then dig the roots out next Feb 2019 and ...put back in ground or pot up or just forget
it it all together? This could’ve been a totally different story had I not given up on maple bonsai years ago.

 

[Japonicus]

Too bad you don't live closer...

I see you’re in Fresno.I was actually planning on visiting my Mother in May. Her hubbys in Cherry Valley
and we would fly into Fresno and visiting a bonsai garden Shin Zen it is, there before we drove on down.
My wife’s wanting to knock off as many Ntl Pks as she can, so Yosemite will be on the list as well.
Thing is, my vacation has not been approved yet, and properties are renting out and packing in faster
than I can say, wow that went fast...

 

[MACH5]

Thanks MACH5. I’m afraid to make an attempt at layering it would mean its demise in my care.
So the heavy landscape root base is a 2nd strike against the tree, 1 being the squat trunk
2 the nebari, 3 crotch rot atop the trunk, and 4, multiple trunks. That sucks.

If I were to forego the layering aspect, and still go for a kabudachi style...
should I chop the existing multiple trunks off and remove the rotten wood there, now
then dig the roots out next Feb 2019 and ...put back in ground or pot up or just forget
it it all together? This could’ve been a totally different story had I not given up on maple bonsai years ago.

Maples can take heavy work up top and down below at the same time in early spring as buds swell. I would clean the rotted area until you get to healthy wood and cover with cut paste and let it heal. To be honest, the nebari as far as I can see does not look too promising. Sometimes you can improve them by root grafting. But many times such as the case here, the best way forward is to air layer them and start over again.

If you are serious about deciduous bonsai in general, I would highly recommend to practice and master some basic techniques such as air layering, root grafting, etc. Some of these techniques are simple and relatively easy to master. They will allow you to improve your trees immeasurably!

 

[Japonicus]

Maples can take heavy work up top and down below at the same time in early spring as buds swell. I would clean the rotted area until you get to healthy wood and cover with cut paste and let it heal. To be honest, the nebari as far as I can see does not look too promising. Sometimes you can improve them by root grafting. But many times such as the case here, the best way forward is to air layer them and start over again.

If you are serious about deciduous bonsai in general, I would highly recommend to practice and master some basic techniques such as air layering, root grafting, etc. Some of these techniques are simple and relatively easy to master. They will allow you to improve your trees immeasurably!

Thank you MACH5 for the pointers and having a look.
“To be honest, the nebari as far as I can see does not look too promising.”
That said it won’t hurt to dig it up and post a picture of the root system.

Obviously we have a different view on “serious about deciduous bonsai”.
I am serious about wanting to keep a Wilson’s Pink. I don’t know, how much work and research
I am willing to put into that though. That is as unknown to me as it is to you.
It must be kept and grown in an out of sight out of mind location to have any chance at survival.
One thing I know, that criteria in any hobby or artistry, is a strike against the husbandry and overal outcome.
Not impossible, but a missed watering could prove devastating.
Already having more trees than I can provide utmost attention to, the level of seriousness you provide
your subjects, far outweigh any level of seriousness I could ever attain to.
That said as a compliment, if the pics in your media are your subjects, then you are to maples
(Lord Maple) as Vance is Lord Mugo.

 

[Japonicus]

@MACH5
Ok, this has changed this thread entirely, but goes along with the mention of a. Palmatum on its own roots.
Got one, and it has been in ground in an out of sight, out of mind location and disturbingly neglected for years.
Got it dug up, and the original window screen used as mesh, and securing tree to pot wire, was still in place.
The bottom is rather flat due to this with the roots radial, to a point.

There's a deep cavity here where it looks like a screw drive was pounded in.
I chiseled out what I could but need to find a small bur for my Dremel tool
if any of the current trunks should remain, then I can seal the wounds.

Myself, I was just thinking about chopping the top of the trunk at a slight angle flat
or however shape and angle you thought best, and starting all new trunk(s), or...
cutting existing trunks down to just nubs. One may need removed altogether, not sure yet.
There may be damage down into the main trunk, I can't tell till I remove the worst one.

Pointers welcome. I plan to do something with this just for S&G. It is back in the ground for now.

 

[Leo in N E Illinois]

I'm surprised nobody mentioned Evergreen Garden Works, Brent Walston http://www.evergreengardenworks.com[\url] Brent has 18 named cultivars of Acer palmatum, all from cuttings, no grafts, all on their own roots. These are all 2 or 3 years old. All you need to do is grow them out to the desired trunk diameter. Most are less than $25. If you want a fancy cultivar, why not try Brent. All his trees are grown out with bonsai in mind. Take a look.

 

[erb.75]

I'm surprised nobody mentioned Evergreen Garden Works, Brent Walston http://www.evergreengardenworks.com[\url] Brent has 18 named cultivars of Acer palmatum, all from cuttings, no grafts, all on their own roots. These are all 2 or 3 years old. All you need to do is grow them out to the desired trunk diameter. Most are less than $25. If you want a fancy cultivar, why not try Brent. All his trees are grown out with bonsai in mind. Take a look.

I just ordered several crab apples from him...excited to get them at the end of this week! His prices are pretty fair too, considering that I can't find anyone else to grow so many ungrafted trees for bonsai use. Mark Comstock does offer some maples too. Next stop on the shopping list in future years will probably be to buy some from Mark

 

[Japonicus]

I'm surprised nobody mentioned Evergreen Garden Works, Brent Walston http://www.evergreengardenworks.com[\url] Brent has 18 named cultivars of Acer palmatum, all from cuttings, no grafts, all on their own roots. These are all 2 or 3 years old. All you need to do is grow them out to the desired trunk diameter. Most are less than $25. If you want a fancy cultivar, why not try Brent. All his trees are grown out with bonsai in mind. Take a look.

I asked Brent back when I got my Blue Atlas cedar and cork bark BP both grafted.
He referred me to Essence of the Tree, who does have one ~3’ tall .75” diameter for $150.
The one I started this thread about is 1/3 that price and about same size both grafted.
Now, Brent does have a. Palmatum on their own roots yes, but not Wilson’s Pink cultivar.
Will most likely order a Palmatum from him.

 

[Japonicus]

Would be nice to know how much root work the one I pictured yesterday can handle right now.

 

[Leo in N E Illinois]

Would be nice to know how much root work the one I pictured yesterday can handle right now.

Nobody can really tell you from a photo. Nobody. Anyone who thinks they can is really just guessing. You need to decide. If you're not sure, do less, or do more to get experience. AFTERCARE, can make a world of difference in survival rates. So are you feeling lucky? Are you feeling skilled in your aftercare?

Key question to ask before you start is what is the health of the tree in front of me. Not a theoretical tree in your mind, a book, or out on the internet. It is about the tree in front of you. The answer will tell you what to do. If the tree is not vigorous and healthy, it is okay to do nothing, but try to get it healthy.

 

[LanceMac10]

I have A Quote from jd Vertrees book of maples.....hold on!

 

[Japonicus]

Nobody can really tell you from a photo. Nobody. Anyone who thinks they can is really just guessing. You need to decide. If you're not sure, do less, or do more to get experience. AFTERCARE, can make a world of difference in survival rates. So are you feeling lucky? Are you feeling skilled in your aftercare?

Key question to ask before you start is what is the health of the tree in front of me. Not a theoretical tree in your mind, a book, or out on the internet. It is about the tree in front of you. The answer will tell you what to do. If the tree is not vigorous and healthy, it is okay to do nothing, but try to get it healthy.

That's a quality post right there. With the rot in the crotch, some of which like a tooth cavity
may extend down into the main trunk, not sure, but that brings into play exactly what you said.
Why didn't that already cross my mind...
Now that you mentioned it Leo, if it survives what has already been done, nearly bare rooting it. Good for it.
Good thing I just reordered K-L-N and ProTekt.

 

[LanceMac10]

That Wilsons Dwarf is described as a vigorous upright grower. So if you could find one, it's possible that it could be relatively vigorous.

 

[LanceMac10]

Get all the heavy lifting out of the way first when you work this kind of material. That means being ruthless in the root zone. Be aggressive. Proper timing gives you the opportunity to do so. Especially heavy rootage. Bare rooted a hosed down a lot of this kind of Maple material.

Some pics, in situ....

 

[Japonicus]

That Wilsons Dwarf is described as a vigorous upright grower. So if you could find one, it's possible that it could be relatively vigorous.

Vigorous - dwarf ?
Yes I think this is the best time for me to work on the roots. I may've already pushed the envelope.

Pretty sure I'm going to purchase the tree I posted the pic of initially.
I plan to try Osoyoungs layering in a cup idea with bonsai soil instead of sphagnum.
The tree doesn't ship till end of April, so not sure what if anything I can do with it till it gets here.
Is that too late to layer one of the 2 trunks?