When is a bonsai "junk"?

[HotAction]

As to the critisicm thing, people need to toughen up. I responded to a post once and said it was junk (didn't offer any reasons) but thought it was pretty obvious. I got an essay back about how i was a jerk, and future posters please only respond if you are bringing milk and cookies. If they had spent as much time doing some research as they did getting their panties in a bunch, they would have known why it was junk. I've read the stuff. If you post a bad tree, you are just wasting space and costing people time and money. Think before you post your crap.

Dave

 

[subnet_rx]

Again, what is junk, and what is beautiful, is in the eye of the viewer. I doubt you will ever find any living tree that 100% of all bonsai artists would say "Nope, can't make that work".

 

[milehigh_7]

There is telling the truth and being an ass. You might be saying the same thing but often it is HOW you say something.

While many of you are fantastic at bonsai you are missing the point regarding how you communicate with others.

The other fact regarding when Harry grew up is, if you were an ass, you got your teeth bashed in. This made for significantly more polite people then and would still work today. In today's world we seldom settle things the old fashioned way.

As someone who has been a coach since the late 80's you don't teach, mold, or motivate by telling one of your basketball players, "your shot sucks" or one of your football players, "your tackling form is junk". This is not called being truthful it is called being an ass.

Wave your flag and toot your horn about how right you are to act this way all day long but it does not make you correct. It certainly does not make you a teacher.

While I do not believe that every tree can be a bonsai, what is important to ascertain (even guide a person to understand )when "helping" is the goal for a particular tree.

For me, many of my trees are merely to learn the basics of potting, pruning, shaping, and overall the horticultural skills necessary to be good at bonsai. Why would I practice on a $500 or more piece of stock when it is quite likely I will kill it? That is simply retarded.

Now the advice should be, "If you want to develop (or purchase for your collection) a "showable" bonsai, here are the best practices to achieve that goal." Part of the "best practices" would be to obtain the best stock possible and to realize that not doing this basic step will likely limit your success long term.

For example, becoming a good shooter in basketball requires a specific, detailed skill set and MUCH practice. If a person will not do these things, they will limit their success in basketball. It is a fundamental. Are there successful shooters with bad form? Yes but they are the very rare exception.

I could teach any of you to be a good shooter if you would allow me to make subtle changes to your form and to encourage your progress. I would not be successful teaching you by telling you that you suck.

 

[milehigh_7]

Further,

You won't see me posting telling someone that their tree is junk as I am not arrogant (read ignorant as well) enough to assume that a few years growing trees in pots qualifies me to do so. Maybe, when people call me master I will feel that freedom.


edit--

I just remembered an anecdote from my first real job. When I was 17 I took a job working highway construction through Leadville Colorado. My job was to walk behind the "lay down machine" and shovel the 500 degree asphalt so it would stay smooth. Well my foreman had a specific way he wanted me to shovel. His reasoning was that you could get more asphalt moved faster by doing it his way. He was correct his way was faster.

Physically this job was harder than anything I have ever done. I shoveled 500 degree asphalt from before sunrise to after it was dark, every day. At the end of the first few days, I got blisters even with gloves. The next few days, those blisters began to bleed. By the end of the day, blood had soaked my gloves and stuck to the shovel handle and my friend had to poor water on the shovel so I could get my gloves off. Big fun it was.

Well back to my supervisor. He would stand on the back of the machine and curse and yell at me about how stupid I was and how poor my shoveling skills were. Hour after hour, day after day he did this. We paved about 20 miles so this went on for quite a while. You might call him honest. However, this man will never know how close he was to being decapitated with my shovel. At that time I was bench-pressing about 325 and doing curls with with 75 pound dumbbells (which is not bad for a kid). He would have never known what hit him until his head hit the ground.

They were shut down for safety violations shortly after I quit to go back to school.

 

[Marc S]

I learned a lot from this article: http://www.knowledgeofbonsai.org/selecting/cheap.php

 

[Glider]

There is telling the truth and being an ass. You might be saying the same thing but often it is HOW you say something.

While many of you are fantastic at bonsai you are missing the point regarding how you communicate with others.

<...CLIP...>

I could teach any of you to be a good shooter if you would allow me to make subtle changes to your form and to encourage your progress. I would not be successful teaching you by telling you that you suck.

Exactly. Well said!

 

[ginger]

Well, you suck!


___ginger

 

[Yamadori]

Originally Posted by milehigh_7
There is telling the truth and being an ass. You might be saying the same thing but often it is HOW you say something.

While many of you are fantastic at bonsai you are missing the point regarding how you communicate with others.

I could teach any of you to be a good shooter if you would allow me to make subtle changes to your form and to encourage your progress. I would not be successful teaching you by telling you that you suck.

Exactly. Well said!

I agree with these guys. I am a teacher. Telling students essentially, " your choice and your work is crap" does not create productive responses in human beings no matter what country they are from. False praise is not valuable either. Honest but thoughtful criticism should leave the learner with hope of understanding and learning.

 

[ginger]

Hey, this is not the third grade here.

 

[Chris Johnston]

I could not agree more. Many times, perception is reality in the area of communications. By that, I mean that the message the recipient perceives is the sum total of the communication. If the recipient receives a communication other than what I intended, the fault is mine for not communicating better.

This is not always true as there are those who will purposely misunderstand or who have a chip on their shoulder. This does not relieve me of the necessity of trying to meet them where they are and bring them to the message I am giving.

Chris

 

[subnet_rx]

Hopeless? Geez, in what context? A bonsai competition they will probably never enter it in? To be perfectly honest, a couple of my favorite trees will never win any competitions, but hold some other special meaning to me (first bonsai bought, bought it to commemorate a special day). Who's setting these standards that something is hopeless? Do you all kick special education children when they fall too? Focus on helping someone make the tree the best it can be. That may not be olympic gold, but happiness doesn't necessarily mean olympic gold for everyone.

 

[grouper52]

Which is the healthier path to take for the purpose of growing interest in bonsai in your home market?

For me, the problem lies in the underlying assumption from the beginning of this thread: Why this emphasis on "growing interest" in bonsai? Do we really need to be so evangelical, and for what reason? To what end? The vast majority of people (especially today's younger generation, I believe) have almost nothing of the skills, temperament or resources required for bonsai: Why worry ourselves about whether our approach to their sticks in pots turns them on or off. Those with the requisite qualities and passion will find their way in the hobby, and will not be dissuaded by a few meathead responses. Those without should appropriately move on to something for which they are better suited, and they will do so - maybe sooner with harsh criticism, maybe later after much coddling, but they will move on.

Do we really want or somehow need a huge number of people involved in this thing? Personally, I prefer it to be a niche hobby, populated by people so caught by the bug that no amount of harsh coaching would ever turn them away.

 

[Tiberious]

As to the critisicm thing, people need to toughen up. I responded to a post once and said it was junk (didn't offer any reasons) but thought it was pretty obvious. I got an essay back about how i was a jerk, and future posters please only respond if you are bringing milk and cookies. If they had spent as much time doing some research as they did getting their panties in a bunch, they would have known why it was junk. I've read the stuff. If you post a bad tree, you are just wasting space and costing people time and money. Think before you post your crap.

Dave

I agree, if your going to post you had better be prepared for either 1. No responses 2. Put it back in the ground or 3. I would do A, B, and C, in other words, everything opposite of what you've done.
Sometimes however I see people posting good trees that are well on their way and the people are telling them all of these things they would do differently. I think this is counterproductive and discourages someone from attempting to develop any sort of personal style. I don't post trees because honestly, It's not important what other people think about them. It's not that I am ignorant to suggestions, but rather; I enjoy the hobby for something other than for show. I really don't want somebody elses idea of a tree, I want my own-one that has developed from my own experience, sentiment, and observations from nature. Hell, I am my own worst critic anyway and often times I have difficulty just meeting my own expectations, let alone the world's.

 

[rockm]

From a long timer...

"There is telling the truth and being an ass. You might be saying the same thing but often it is HOW you say something.

While many of you are fantastic at bonsai you are missing the point regarding how you communicate with others.

The other fact regarding when Harry grew up is, if you were an ass, you got your teeth bashed in. This made for significantly more polite people then and would still work today. In today's world we seldom settle things the old fashioned way.

As someone who has been a coach since the late 80's you don't teach, mold, or motivate by telling one of your basketball players, "your shot sucks" or one of your football players, "your tackling form is junk". This is not called being truthful it is called being an ass."



While I used to post extensively on bonsai boards a while back, this is one of the reasons I quit. Arrogance can flow in two directions, just like communications. Not saying this particular response is arrogant, but it shows that sometimes the new bonsai "players" have huge blind spots, just like athletes.

Yeah, a coach (I have been one also) has to pick their words carefully and know how to push their players gently, (or firmly, who likes a coach who doesn't take charge in one way or another?) the player has responsibilities also.

Coaches in any sport have players that simply: refuse instruction; don't want to listen because they "know" their way is better; don't pay attention; yell loudly when told they're doing it wrong because they're embarrassed at not having mastered the basics; are in over their heads...the list can go on.

New bonsaists have to actually listen to what's being said if they get what they consider to be a "harsh" "elitist" response from someone.

From what I've seen over the years, for some reason, bonsai draws an inordinate number of folks who aren't so much interested in bonsai, as they are in impressing everyone with their bonsai and bonsai knowledge. Those folks can get VERY upset when they're called on their bluff.

 

[ghues]

Its about...

Hey Chris,
Although I think most will agree with your concerns about nursery/home depot types of stock, I see them as great for training purposes, doesn't cost you a whole lot and gives one an opportunity to practice the basic's of design, shaping, fertilizing, repotting....etc. Many in our newly formed club just love to grow things, and learning about bonsai seems like a natural path.
However despite the above, we have encouraged our club members to purchase a Boxwood from a local Boxstore supplier for our May meeting, they may never grace the halls of an exhibition........ but we'll get years of practice and fun out of them. We also have the opportunity to buy pre bonsai from one of the senior members, who has a large and wonderful collection of Mountain hemlock and lodgepole pine.
I've got a lot of urban collected trees but I don't label them bonsai, but all of them have an unusual character and add to the garden landscape.
Cheers Gman

 

[Gnome]

I could not agree more. Many times, perception is reality in the area of communications. By that, I mean that the message the recipient perceives is the sum total of the communication. If the recipient receives a communication other than what I intended, the fault is mine for not communicating better.
Chris

Chris,

Been reading Sun Tzu?

Norm

 

[TheSteve]

There is a big difference between "this is junk" and "this is junk and here's why." To point out and list the flaws that make it junk not only teach them what they did wrong or what to look for in the future but it also gives the post some cushioning. It's harder to call some an ass when they have stated reasons for their belief beyond insults.

 

[subnet_rx]

This is the crux of the biscuit here. This isn't about being arrogant or rude or ignorant. There are some trees that will NEVER be Bonsai and nothing is gained by working on them. If you want to grow trees--or trees in pots--thats fine!!! I have no problem with that. There is a point where it is not Bonsai --but just cultivating a stick in a pot.

If the idea is to advance Bonsai---then the material must conform to certain basic charateristics.

The standards were set by the Japanese, Chinese and the many masters and students of the continuing Bonsai tradition.

I have yet to find these standards, are they posted somewhere so that I could see how many trees that I have are qualified as bonsai?

 

[greerhw]

I'm a research nut, I never buy or start a project until I've done my research, heck I still take consumer reports. I wouldn't just pull into a auto dealership and say I'll take the red one. If newbies would just visit a club or lurk on some bonsai web boards for a while , this thread wouldn't be necessary. Two things you've heard all you life "You can't make a silk purse out of a sow's ear" and "you don't get something for nothing" although my dad was wrong about "money doesn't grow on trees". NEWBIES, if you read this, ask questions before you buy, please. Don't buy a stick then post a picture for comments, because if I'm hungover that day, I'm liable to tell what I think and the truth will set you free and I can once again be chastised by the teachers and the sugarcoat crowd for being rude, obnoxious,overbearing,elitist,socially unacceptable and a few others I can't put in print and runnng you away pouting from bonsai. Buy a green mound juniper, preferably a staked one and you won't be sorry,

Ciao,
Harry

 

[Marc S]

For me, the problem lies in the underlying assumption from the beginning of this thread: Why this emphasis on "growing interest" in bonsai? Do we really need to be so evangelical, and for what reason? To what end? The vast majority of people (especially today's younger generation, I believe) have almost nothing of the skills, temperament or resources required for bonsai: Why worry ourselves about whether our approach to their sticks in pots turns them on or off. Those with the requisite qualities and passion will find their way in the hobby, and will not be dissuaded by a few meathead responses. Those without should appropriately move on to something for which they are better suited, and they will do so - maybe sooner with harsh criticism, maybe later after much coddling, but they will move on.

Do we really want or somehow need a huge number of people involved in this thing? Personally, I prefer it to be a niche hobby, populated by people so caught by the bug that no amount of harsh coaching would ever turn them away.

You like the idea of an "elite" of "masters", isn't it? Grouper, how could "ordinary" people ("the vast majority of people, especially today's younger generation") move on with harsh criticism, if you, considering yourself a "master", can't even accept "mild" criticism?