When is a bonsai "junk"?

[pauldogx]

Then you really haven't looked hard, now have you?

I've had it happen to me on two separate occasions on this forum and I have lost the will to post any pics up because of it. I will continue to read and see what info is on here and other sites, ask questions of my informal teacher and find answers in books, etc. But I find beauty in natural-looking trees, not just trees that look like a chic on a dance floor that has thrown her hip out. (If you're wondering what that looks like, exactly, see the pic below.)

Daniel

To be honest---I havent seen any really blatant rudeness---no. I'm sure the mods would have stepped in if it gotten ugly.

 

[milehigh_7]

Daniel, Sorry, I was drinking when i said your tree was "junk" I suck at typing on this damn laptop. I can't explain things well via the internet. I feel like since you have been here (1 month) you have started alot of threads looking for info that is out there. When you search for it, not only do you find what you are looking for, you find additional information too.

All posts started by Daniel: http://bonsainut.com/forums/search.php?searchid=224576

My first encounter with you (I believe) http://bonsainut.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1833
-Not so much as a thankyou for taking the time to help you with a P.O.S. tree
-Didn't really care what any of the people actually trying to help said
-Then claimed you knew the answer to the original question in the first place
-Then called us hijackers

So...If anyone wants to judge my saying it straight to daniel without a cherry on top go ahead. Just would have been wasting my breath explaining it anyway.

my "rude post to daniel" http://bonsainut.com/forums/showpost.php?p=25149&postcount=3

-Dave

p.s. it does get nutty up in here.

I don't think you were rude in the thread in question at all. It seems that there may have been a misunderstanding but you were not rude.

As to my comments thus far, they are general comments about board interaction I have seen in the last eight or nine years that I have been lurking on the boards trying to learn.

 

[HotAction]

Then you really haven't looked hard, now have you?

I've had it happen to me on two separate occasions on this forum and I have lost the will to post any pics up because of it. Daniel

I think I may have saved them the time. (see post #57)

-Dave

 

[HotAction]

I don't think you were rude in the thread in question at all. It seems that there may have been a misunderstanding but you were not rude.

As to my comments thus far, they are general comments about board interaction I have seen in the last eight or nine years that I have been lurking on the boards trying to learn.

I didn't think so, but Daniel did. I posted earlier in this thread and stated that I had called a tree "junk" due to the title of this thread.

-I felt that you were referring to me in earlier posts, so I wanted to clarify and put it on the record for all to form their own opinion.

-No hard feelings on my end

-Dave

 

[milehigh_7]

-No hard feelings on my end

-Dave

Nor on mine, my bonsai brother!

 

[daniel]

Daniel, Sorry, I was drinking when i said your tree was "junk" I suck at typing on this damn laptop. I can't explain things well via the internet. I feel like since you have been here (1 month) you have started alot of threads looking for info that is out there. When you search for it, not only do you find what you are looking for, you find additional information too.

All posts started by Daniel: http://bonsainut.com/forums/search.php?searchid=224576

My first encounter with you (I believe) http://bonsainut.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1833
-Not so much as a thankyou for taking the time to help you with a P.O.S. tree
-Didn't really care what any of the people actually trying to help said
-Then claimed you knew the answer to the original question in the first place
-Then called us hijackers

So...If anyone wants to judge my saying it straight to daniel without a cherry on top go ahead. Just would have been wasting my breath explaining it anyway.

my "rude post to daniel" http://bonsainut.com/forums/showpost.php?p=25149&postcount=3

-Dave

p.s. it does get nutty up in here.

Dave,

Listen. I don't know what your deal is in saying that I didn't care what other people said. Are you a mind reader?

Thanks for calling my tree a POS--basically what i was saying in the first place.

If you aren't aware, a hijacker is someone that comes in and discusses a peripheral subject or question to what the original post was about. It wasn't serious at all. (If you take something that seriously especially with a smiley after it...wow.)

Finally, how did I claim that I "knew" the answer after all? I still don't. However, I gained information from what everyone said.

I tried to respond to all of the posts, but I couldn't. I work, have multiple medical issues and have a 9-month old. Give me a break.

I do know how to use the search function, believe it or not. I don't have hours and hours to go through sometimes very long discussions to find a small snipit of what I was looking for. Some may, but I don't. I've found lots of great information (before this, mind you) on other sites. However, some things just aren't out there. As well, I found there is great variation and "controversy" over some subjects that I wasn't aware. That answers some questions for me.

Also Dave, in the bouganvillea thread, you missed the other comments that gave examples of what I should do, rather than just compost it. That is constructive criticism.

So anyway, spare me the "...if you want to judge..." crap. Jeez.

Daniel

 

[Smoke]

Dave,

Listen. I don't know what your deal is in saying that I didn't care what other people said. Are you a mind reader?

Thanks for calling my tree a POS--basically what i was saying in the first place.

If you aren't aware, a hijacker is someone that comes in and discusses a peripheral subject or question to what the original post was about. It wasn't serious at all. (If you take something that seriously especially with a smiley after it...wow.)

Finally, how did I claim that I "knew" the answer after all? I still don't. However, I gained information from what everyone said.

I tried to respond to all of the posts, but I couldn't. I work, have multiple medical issues and have a 9-month old. Give me a break.

I do know how to use the search function, believe it or not. I don't have hours and hours to go through sometimes very long discussions to find a small snipit of what I was looking for. Some may, but I don't. I've found lots of great information (before this, mind you) on other sites. However, some things just aren't out there. As well, I found there is great variation and "controversy" over some subjects that I wasn't aware. That answers some questions for me.

Also Dave, in the bouganvillea thread, you missed the other comments that gave examples of what I should do, rather than just compost it. That is constructive criticism.

So anyway, spare me the "...if you want to judge..." crap. Jeez.

Daniel

Ha! a prime example of drama.....

 

[daniel]

Nah, just a reply...

 

[Smoke]

Nah, just a reply...

Let's see, you started a sentence with "listen,...."

You started a sentence with " If you aren't aware,..."

You started a sentence with "Finally,..."

And ended with this gem "So anyway, spare me the "...if you want to judge..." crap. Jeez."

That sounds like drama to me. Oh and welcome to bonsai duscussion forums. It seems that after only joining last month with 79 posts you will fit right in!

 

[treebeard55]

...I think it would be a good idea , at the club level, to have a night devoted to this topic(with examples of good and bad stock) as I think this is an area all beginners, including myself, struggle with.

Now there is one heckuva good idea.

 

[daniel]

I never mentioned the word "rude." I was simply looking for constructive criticism of my trees. I looked back and did not use "rude" per se. I simply pointed out that I prefer criticism that can be used to further the tree and my skills, just as I think most would.

This is the last post I will make on this "issue."

Daniel

 

[Chris Johnston]

I do know how to use the search function, believe it or not. I don't have hours and hours to go through sometimes very long discussions to find a small snipit of what I was looking for. Some may, but I don't. I've found lots of great information (before this, mind you) on other sites. However, some things just aren't out there. As well, I found there is great variation and "controversy" over some subjects that I wasn't aware. That answers some questions for me.

Daniel

This is perhaps the best criticism of the nature of bonsai forums, and one of the main reasons given by people like Walter Pall for withdrawing from them to put his information on his blog. I am considering the same thing.

Suppose there is a thread that I find stimulating and have something to add to it. Perhaps it's to outline a very new technology or technique. So I spend time writing and posting photos, only to see that post drop deeper and deeper into the thread as it gets sidetracked or hijacked or ignored. That's fine. But I don't want to do the same thing again because someone doesn't "have hours and hourst to got through sometimes very long discussions to find a small snippet of what I was looking for."

I've found that most things are out there either here or on other forums if one refines one's search properly. Otherwise, a VERY specific question can get you the answer you haven't seen elsewhere.

Chris

 

[TheSteve]

I do know how to use the search function, believe it or not. I don't have hours and hours to go through sometimes very long discussions to find a small snipit of what I was looking for. Some may, but I don't. I've found lots of great information (before this, mind you) on other sites. However, some things just aren't out there. As well, I found there is great variation and "controversy" over some subjects that I wasn't aware. That answers some questions for me.
Daniel

Seems to be exactly what's happening to this thread.

 

[daniel]

I've found that most things are out there either here or on other forums if one refines one's search properly. Otherwise, a VERY specific question can get you the answer you haven't seen elsewhere.

I've always tried to ask very specific questions when I could. Only if I couldn't narrow a question down when I hadn't found the answer would I ask a general question. About the only time I would ask an open question is about styling and again this is only after looking to find an answer first. (Primarily on other sites.)

Daniel

 

[Bonsai Nut]

I've had it happen to me on two separate occasions on this forum and I have lost the will to post any pics up because of it.

Daniel; I feel for you. 20 years ago I had a similar experience, and felt the same way afterwards. I brought a beginner tree to my first ever bonsai workshop with a nationally recognized bonsai instructor (who is still around). I was naive, but extremely positive about the hobby. In a 10 minute period of time, this instructor personally belittled me to the point that I wanted to leave the hobby and never see another tree again. And to think I paid MONEY to be abused like that

However I stepped back and tried to put the emotion behind me. I evaluated everything the person said, and accepted the fact that it was all correct. I worked hard to improve technique and avoid making the same mistakes. The experience made me a better bonsai artist and made me appreciate how important it is to go to workshops, join clubs, and attend exhibitions, because this is an art form that is almost impossible to learn from books.

Now I try to take a more humble approach with my trees. I know that NONE of them are perfect - even the ones that make me happy. I have tossed many of my "sticks in pots" though I admit I still have a few for fun - either because I grew them from seed, or they are an uncommon species or cultivar.

However I am never embarassed to post my trees here - even the crappy ones. I always start the post with "here is a crappy tree - help me out". I have never tossed a tree because someone "told me to" but I listen to what people say and many times it has caused me to think differently about a tree than I had in the past. However I have not stopped being my own person, and doing my own thing, and if a certain stick in a pot makes me happy, I keep it. At the same time, I also know where I have to start if I want to show a tree in an exhibition in my lifetime - and it is NOT with a stick in the pot So I also collect yamadori and pay decent money for pre-bonsai. I assume over time that my sticks in pots will all go away, and I hope that it will be due to the fact that I actually grew them into something

 

[daniel]

Thanks, B-nut. I don't really mind someone saying "that's crap" or whatever they may say. What I do mind, however, is when whoever may say it and give no instruction as to how to improve it (assuming there is one). That's my big beef.

As an example, I used to race cars. I instructed new students and gave them tips and tricks to make them faster, better drivers. I didn't just say,"You might as well hang up your running shorts and get out of the human race!" Nothing like that--they would have never come back, just like your instructor from years ago.

If you look at some of the threads in question, there were several others that posted with constructive criticism of one or more of my trees (including you). I appreciate it and have made many of the changes that were suggested.

Anyway, thanks to you and those who have helped me develop my eye and skills. I appreciate it!

Daniel

 

[milehigh_7]

Daniel; I feel for you. 20 years ago I had a similar experience, and felt the same way afterwards. I brought a beginner tree to my first ever bonsai workshop with a nationally recognized bonsai instructor (who is still around). I was naive, but extremely positive about the hobby. In a 10 minute period of time, this instructor personally belittled me to the point that I wanted to leave the hobby and never see another tree again. And to think I paid MONEY to be abused like that

However I stepped back and tried to put the emotion behind me. I evaluated everything the person said, and accepted the fact that it was all correct. I worked hard to improve technique and avoid making the same mistakes. The experience made me a better bonsai artist and made me appreciate how important it is to go to workshops, join clubs, and attend exhibitions, because this is an art form that is almost impossible to learn from books.

Now I try to take a more humble approach with my trees. I know that NONE of them are perfect - even the ones that make me happy. I have tossed many of my "sticks in pots" though I admit I still have a few for fun - either because I grew them from seed, or they are an uncommon species or cultivar.

However I am never embarassed to post my trees here - even the crappy ones. I always start the post with "here is a crappy tree - help me out". I have never tossed a tree because someone "told me to" but I listen to what people say and many times it has caused me to think differently about a tree than I had in the past. However I have not stopped being my own person, and doing my own thing, and if a certain stick in a pot makes me happy, I keep it. At the same time, I also know where I have to start if I want to show a tree in an exhibition in my lifetime - and it is NOT with a stick in the pot So I also collect yamadori and pay decent money for pre-bonsai. I assume over time that my sticks in pots will all go away, and I hope that it will be due to the fact that I actually grew them into something

BNut, excellent post! Thanks for the personal insight. That was one of the most helpful offerings I have seen in some time.

 

[Rick Moquin]

For me, the problem lies in the underlying assumption from the beginning of this thread: Why this emphasis on "growing interest" in bonsai? Do we really need to be so evangelical, and for what reason? To what end? The vast majority of people (especially today's younger generation, I believe) have almost nothing of the skills, temperament or resources required for bonsai: Why worry ourselves about whether our approach to their sticks in pots turns them on or off. Those with the requisite qualities and passion will find their way in the hobby, and will not be dissuaded by a few meathead responses. Those without should appropriately move on to something for which they are better suited, and they will do so - maybe sooner with harsh criticism, maybe later after much coddling, but they will move on.

Do we really want or somehow need a huge number of people involved in this thing? Personally, I prefer it to be a niche hobby, populated by people so caught by the bug that no amount of harsh coaching would ever turn them away.

ROTFL
I don't believe what I have just read.

 

[Mojosan]

"... in 1991 my mother noticed how taken I was by the Bonsai in the film 'Karate Kid', and gave me a tree the following Christmas.

That is when my life changed.

That is when I decided to become a Bonsai master."


ROTFLMAO!!

 

[Dwight]

I kinda see your point Will but I really don't think we need to worry too much. Bonsai seems to be a self limiting hobby. If someone doesn't have the requitite qualities they will eventually quit.

On the other hand , discouraging beginners ( of any age ) is a mistake. Give them the honest advice they really need and if they stick with it , then great. If they can't stand the HONEST criticisms ( sp ) they won't be around long enough to be a bother. I remember a few uears ago when a certain fool in Weat Texas was personally attacked because he screwed up a tree , this wise fellow from around Seattle way not only offered assistance and encouragement but went WAY out of his way to help this poor fool obtain a real good piece of stock. That one act kept me from quiting. I don't know if it made my skills any better but me and the tree are still here , trying.