When is a bonsai "junk"?

[Poink88]

For many of us our trees are our babies...to us they are beautiful. They might not look good to other people but for specific reasons they look fantastic to us. It can even be just sentimental reason. If you just give me a stick from your garden ...something you dont consider anything...I would be a happy girl and treasure it to the day I die! (this was given to me by Walter!) For me it will be a treasure...
Now imagine you have an ugly child....

Wow...the best line I've read in a long while. So true, to me at least and I can relate.

 

[Neli]

How about this- make a list is trees species that are and are not "suitable" for Bonsai.

Off the top of my head, the list of those that are suitable would be quite long and I know of very few that are not... A few species of pine with exceptionally long needles perhaps... Some dwarf species that just never "trunk up" sufficiently to make a real masterpiece but most trees are able to be turned into bonsai right?

So from that perspective there should be very few examples of something that is truly junk!

Sure you will find specific examples of trees from a suitable species that will never be masterpiece works of bonsai art because of inherent flaws... I frequently think if Azaleasy like you see in nursery cans a lot who have the 500 little branches shooting up out the ground... But especially if we are talking about "sticks in a pot"/ SEEDLINGS, with a couple years you can grow them into a suitable tree usually...

Hey I spent the first couple years of my involvement with Bonsai working on "junk" and had some losses due to my own care issues, bad weather, thieves... But after I figured out a little better what makes a tree look older and what makes a nice Bonsai, I was able to put my busy scissor hands on hold and allow my "junk" to develop into much better stock for the most part! Now I have some pretty nice Maples and an ancient old nursery azalea that are just starting to get worked on again and the new material I add- I believe- has much more potential to become something much sooner...

So, maybe working on junk is a much slower process but I think with the proper care you can usually turn junk (again especially YOUNG/ seedling junk) into a decent tree eventually...

Is it easier and faster and are the end results better if you start with great stock? Oh ABSOLUTELY! My intent is going forward to try to focus more on quality pre bonsai when purchasing trees.. Just for the sake of this discussion I am interested to see what others consider junk. It seems most of the discussion has turned to how to break it to newbs that they HAVE junk... Not the identification of what makes it so bad.

Junk?
I think trees that have over large leaves that dont reduce well are junk, as material for bonsai.
A tree that throws branches when you stress it just a bit , like repotting...is junk. I am not into bonsai to be frustrated....but to enjoy the process.
A tree that requires more care than the pleasure it gives back...is not for me...I would not call it junk but not worth my time. And mind you I can go to extremes where my trees are concerned.
I wrote something here on how to select material from a nursery...probably need to revise it and add on but it is already too long for some people to read it all.
http://nelibonsai.wordpress.com/2013/07/26/how-to-select-material-from-a-nursery/

 

[Vance Wood]

This is a Japanese maple, Acer palmatum, from a regular garden center. This is definitely junk. Just about everything is bad on this tree. It is clearly an example of what not to do. Why someone would bother to make a photograph escapes me.
Lousy nebari, big hole right in front, almost no taper. branches in very bad position, silly light bend in trunk. There MUST be better material in any garden center lot.

Far be it for me to argue or disagree with you, but in the eyes of someone who is capable of producing such great art this tree has to look like a stock of celery. I really do understand what you are saying but, in the right hands this tree could be made acceptable in as little as five years. It would not be a masterpiece or even a show stopper but it could be worth looking at. It is for all intents and purposes a good piece of raw stock. Note trying to assume what you are thinking but if I were in your position I would look at the five or ten years it takes to make this tree something as a waste of time. You could take that five or ten years and make some really spectacular bonsai. However; few people have your talent and fewer people still, have access to the quality material you have to choose from. Talent and reputation will open doors open not to all. I am thankful you are willing to share yourself with all of us.

I know that you start with mostly Yamadori and really well cultivated pre-bonsai, and this tree is neither one. But it does, in the end, come down to the eye of the beholder. I can see a future in this tree mostly because I am kind of the Fred Sanford of bonsai: The Junk Man of Little Trees and I can see a future in it.

 

[Mac In Oak Ridge]

This is kind of what I was refering to on another thread about 5$ Lowes stock. Is anybody really learning anything working on material of this caliber??? I think it leads to more frustration and disinterest.

Can you find good stock at a regular nursery??? Sure---but it's not likely.

I think urban yamadori is a source we overlook too often as well.

Are not urban yamadori nursery stock that has been planted in the ground? What have I missed?

 

[Poink88]

Are not urban yamadori nursery stock that has been planted in the ground? What have I missed?

LOL, yes but +xx years. Proof that with time they can be good or even great with proper training.

 

[Mac In Oak Ridge]

Here is a Japanese Red Maple that I purchased in a 1 gal. nursery container from Lowe's nursery center about 10 years ago. When Purchased the trunk was about 3/4" in diameter. I paid $9.95 for it.

While not a spectacular bonsai tree I am not one bit ashamed to display it in an exhibit.

 

[Vance Wood]

LOL, yes but +xx years. Proof that with time they can be good or even great with proper training.

That has been my argument for many years. The real issue is that of time. How much time are you willing to devote to getting some little tree from point A to point B? Those who are more invested in a quick result will look at long term projects as not so good an idea.

Some of those who are relatively new to bonsai and have had the fortune to work with good stock and big name teachers, from the beginning, tend to look at others who do not have those assets as 2nd class artists and what they do as less than bonsai. I was drug down that road on this forum----- years ago.

 

[Poink88]

That has been my argument for many years. The real issue is that of time. How much time are you willing to devote to getting some little tree from point A to point B? Those who are more invested in a quick result will look at long term projects as not so good an idea.

Some of those who are relatively new to bonsai and have had the fortune to work with good stock and big name teachers, from the beginning, tend to look at others who do not have those assets as 2nd class artists and what they do as less than bonsai. I was drug down that road on this forum----- years ago.

The haves and have nots. There will always be that divide and the haves may never relate. They won't understand that some have to live with "budget".

I choose now to understand them instead.

To their defense, time is the most precious resource and it makes sense to go with premium stock if you can afford it. UNLESS you just enjoy or like the challenge of turning something out of nothing.

 

[Neli]

That has been my argument for many years. The real issue is that of time. How much time are you willing to devote to getting some little tree from point A to point B? Those who are more invested in a quick result will look at long term projects as not so good an idea.

Some of those who are relatively new to bonsai and have had the fortune to work with good stock and big name teachers, from the beginning, tend to look at others who do not have those assets as 2nd class artists and what they do as less than bonsai. I was drug down that road on this forum----- years ago.

Darling, I have those opportunities...but I will never put down anyone. We have a monthly prebonsai competition on SA forum. I have never posted any of my trees from Japan there. I have always posted things I have grown from scratch, and are nothing too intimidating, for beginners. Not that there is such special virtue in that, but I did not want to put down people who can not afford the same material as me. I have never even posted anywhere most of my trees, and I must have close or over 1000.

The haves and have nots. There will always be that divide and the haves may never relate. They won't understand that some have to live with "budget".

I choose now to understand them instead.

To their defense, time is the most precious resource and it makes sense to go with premium stock if you can afford it. UNLESS you just enjoy or like the challenge of turning something out of nothing.

Dario, I have no budget...but I prefer to buy prebonsai material...like good trunks, and not finished bonsai. But I am growing many from cuttings , seeds and they bring me joy.
I have trees that I have grown from tiny cuttings for 20 years.
For me it is the creative process that is important and I find fulfilling.
The way they say: It is the journey that matters.

 

[Poink88]

For me it is the creative process that is important and I find fulfilling.
The way they say: It is the journey that matters.

I agree. Thus this line...

UNLESS you just enjoy or like the challenge of turning something out of nothing.

 

[Eric Group]

This is a Japanese maple, Acer palmatum, from a regular garden center. This is definitely junk. Just about everything is bad on this tree. It is clearly an example of what not to do. Why someone would bother to make a photograph escapes me.
Lousy nebari, big hole right in front, almost no taper. branches in very bad position, silly light bend in trunk. There MUST be better material in any garden center lot.

That is certainly an ugly duckling, and I am a Japanese Maple fan- probably my favorite species of tree...

So, this tree is junk because of the issues it has, but certainly not junk because of the type of tree that it is, correct? I mean we have probably all seen what incredible things you can do with a Japanese Maple Walter!

Especially in light of the way many people chop them down the plant them in the ground and grow these guys out, do you not think you could make something nice out of this tree within a reasonable amount of time? Sure, as it stands now= junk, no doubt. I agree with you that it s perplexing why someone took the time not only to attempt to take a nice photo of it, but at this point it shouldn't even be In A bonsai tray right? Does that mean we should discard trees that have challenges or work to try to fix them?

I guess that is the heart of it for me... Basically just about every tree is junk from a Bonsai perspective until it is styled by the right hands. While it makes it easier and the end result is better if you start with great trees, does it mean that we should just give up on trees when we find faults with them?

 

[coh]

This is a Japanese maple, Acer palmatum, from a regular garden center. This is definitely junk. Just about everything is bad on this tree. It is clearly an example of what not to do. Why someone would bother to make a photograph escapes me.
Lousy nebari, big hole right in front, almost no taper. branches in very bad position, silly light bend in trunk. There MUST be better material in any garden center lot.

Did anyone else notice that the date on the image (from the filename) is 1984? Walter is going to eventually post the stunning tree that he created from this stock, just wait

Anyone who has seen Bill V's recent book knows that some of his beautiful trees were created from similar appearing stock or cuttings. It may have taken 30-40 years, but if you have the time and desire to work on something for that long, why would anyone have a problem with it?

Also, Neli wrote (in part)

I think trees that have over large leaves that dont reduce well are junk, as material for bonsai

This is an over-simplified viewpoint. Perhaps some of these species have other attributes that make them worthy. For instance, wisteria which look pretty silly most of the year but stunningly beautiful for the couple of weeks in the spring...and other species which may have attractive bark/twigs for winter view, or interesting fruit.

Chris

 

[Poink88]

Did anyone else notice that the date on the image (from the filename) is 1984? Walter is going to eventually post the stunning tree that he created from this stock, just wait

LOL...you could be right. I actually composed a long response but deleted it.

The gist... that tree has lots of things going for it, if one would take the time (there are so much worse posted here--and in my benches). I wouldn't hesitate adopting it myself.

 

[Eric Group]

Junk?
I think trees that have over large leaves that dont reduce well are junk, as material for bonsai.
A tree that throws branches when you stress it just a bit , like repotting...is junk. I am not into bonsai to be frustrated....but to enjoy the process.
A tree that requires more care than the pleasure it gives back...is not for me...I would not call it junk but not worth my time. And mind you I can go to extremes where my trees are concerned.
I wrote something here on how to select material from a nursery...probably need to revise it and add on but it is already too long for some people to read it all.
http://nelibonsai.wordpress.com/2013/07/26/how-to-select-material-from-a-nursery/

Certainly some of the traits you mention make Bonsai more difficult, but what are some of the trees that have these traits?

Magnolia have huge leaves, but I have seen people make bonsai out of them... What is a species whose leaves are too large?

What species is too much trouble to be worth your time?

 

[Walter Pall]

Since I got caught here is the solution:
first image 1984, last three images as of now, thirty years later.

How this happened one can see here:

http://http://walter-pall.de/maplesjapanese_maple_nr__3.jpg.dir/index.html

What can we learn from this?

 

[coh]

Certainly some of the traits you mention make Bonsai more difficult, but what are some of the trees that have these traits?

Magnolia have huge leaves, but I have seen people make bonsai out of them... What is a species whose leaves are too large?

What species is too much trouble to be worth your time?

Magnolias are a good example. There was an issue of International Bonsai that had photos of a number of magnolia bonsai. They are generally displayed during winter and spring, especially when the buds are swelling and opening, and can make a very nice display. I've got a couple that are in the very early stages of development.

I used to think there were some trees that could never be made into effective bonsai, but that opinion went out the window when I saw a horse chestnut on Walter's site. We had one of these growing near the house...the leaves are huge/compound. I would never in a million years thought to try making a bonsai out of that species.

Chris

 

[Brian Van Fleet]

first image 1984, last three images as of now, thirty years later.
...What can we learn from this?

2 things:
1. If you have 30 years, your efforts are worth about $100/year to get from the first to the last photo.
2. If you have $3k, you can start with a tree like the last photo now.

 

[Smoke]

Wow! I just got a raise. I am now making an extra 100 bucks a year!


how many trees do I have......Holy Crap!

 

[Neli]

Did anyone else notice that the date on the image (from the filename) is 1984? Walter is going to eventually post the stunning tree that he created from this stock, just wait

Anyone who has seen Bill V's recent book knows that some of his beautiful trees were created from similar appearing stock or cuttings. It may have taken 30-40 years, but if you have the time and desire to work on something for that long, why would anyone have a problem with it?

Also, Neli wrote (in part)

I think trees that have over large leaves that dont reduce well are junk, as material for bonsai

This is an over-simplified viewpoint. Perhaps some of these species have other attributes that make them worthy. For instance, wisteria which look pretty silly most of the year but stunningly beautiful for the couple of weeks in the spring...and other species which may have attractive bark/twigs for winter view, or interesting fruit.

Chris

He he he! I am expecting that too...Walter is coming with a shocker!
Wisteria is not really over large leaves.... . I am talking of huge leaves... I have trees here with 60 cm leaves. Wisteria is nice bonsai material...I have one.

 

[Neli]

Since I got caught here is the solution:
first image 1984, last three images as of now, thirty years later.

How this happened one can see here:

http://http://walter-pall.de/maplesjapanese_maple_nr__3.jpg.dir/index.html

What can we learn from this?

He he he! I new it was coming...Very inspirational. I think it gives many people hope.
In the right hands every stick can be gold!