Artisans Cup of Portland

[grouper52]

I believe the exuberance displayed in their mission statement was simply used to create a buzz in the bonsai world. A refreshing spark to promote the "new movement to raise aesthetic appreciation...". If taken in certain context, as you have demonstrated, it does convey a sense of irony between something new (America's movement) and something old (traditional Japanese). While the overall description could have been a little less dramatic, I am glad they are at least putting forth an effort to improve the bonsai "scene" in America. I think the delay is a blessing in disguise, as it allows the creators to gather more input from the bonsai community. I'm sure Ryan and Michael would be eager to hear why you would not enter and what they can do to attract more artists/enthusiasts. That would be key for a successful inaugural show.

Thanks for your thoughtful post.

0ne thing about the emphasis for this contest is indeed captured in your choice of the word "scene". I believe there are many that hope to organize and consolidate American bonsai into a quasi-cult-like "scene" around a select few "masters" or "gurus", who have been trained in the correct view of reality by their Asian "masters/gurus". I've had intimate experience with Asian religious cults that have gravitated to the States over the past 50 years, and I have no interest in seeing American bonsai devolve into those sorts of shenanigans. Why must there be a bonsai "scene" at all? Why the need for a "scene"? What's the thinking?

I would not enter this competition for a number of the general points I have mentioned above, but here are some specific points to illustrate further.

I have no interest in accent plants or accent stones or such contrived nonsense to make a tree look authentically presentable. Trees easily stand - or fall - on their own merits, IMO.

The unnecessary requirement about moss is, again, contrived. Why must there be moss? And yet, even that moss must - I am certain - conform to Japanese traditions. In the Northwest, many of us just let varieties of local or invading species set up shop in our pots, and it often creates a gorgeous addition to the overall presentation of the tree. Such displays would be dismissed out of hand by this jury.

The requirements for pots and stands and wooden slabs and such will likewise carry the tacit assumption that the jury will pick only ones that their teachers would have approved of. I suppose, as "Fine Art", such a frame or pedestal is required, but again, I question the need to "elevate" bonsai to a "Fine Art". The motives of those who want to do so speak volumes to a shrink like myself.

The Japanese aesthetic is nothing else if not "refined," and even an occasional exuberance must be significantly restrained. The American psyche has little need for or interest in such. As Dan said, looking at the spectacular tree he would want to submit, "This is a fantastic tree! There probably aren't more than a handful of trees in whole country that are this exciting, exuding this much potential and energy. And it would never be selected."

Just to build on Dan's ideas, he has often said that the panel of judges at any bonsai competition should include at least one person who knew nothing at all about bonsai - someone picked off the street and asked to rank trees according to how much they liked them. The results, in his opinion, would be markedly different than they are now, and might result in a new energy, a very American energy, finally finding its way into the hobby.

I think he has a point. We are not Japanese. It would be an arguable point to suggest that those who are not at ease in their own culture here would probably do better to simply go live and practice bonsai over there. I do not believe Americans need to be "fundamentally transformed" in any way, nor their budding young American style of bonsai channeled into some foreign mold.

/rant/

 

[Jason]

The Japanese aesthetic is nothing else if not "refined," and even an occasional exuberance must be significantly restrained. The American psyche has little need for or interest in such.

When you say the American psyche are you talking about your psyche, Dan's psyche, or my psyche?

 

[grouper52]

When you say the American psyche are you talking about your psyche, Dan's psyche, or my psyche?

It would be difficult to have much to say about your psyche: it has been my great good fortune not to have your psyche occupy my mental landscape for a long time now.

 

[reddog]

Thanks for your thoughtful post.

0ne thing about the emphasis for this contest is indeed captured in your choice of the word "scene". I believe there are many that hope to organize and consolidate American bonsai into a quasi-cult-like "scene" around a select few "masters" or "gurus", who have been trained in the correct view of reality by their Asian "masters/gurus". I've had intimate experience with Asian religious cults that have gravitated to the States over the past 50 years, and I have no interest in seeing American bonsai devolve into those sorts of shenanigans. Why must there be a bonsai "scene" at all? Why the need for a "scene"? What's the thinking?

I would not enter this competition for a number of the general points I have mentioned above, but here are some specific points to illustrate further.

I have no interest in accent plants or accent stones or such contrived nonsense to make a tree look authentically presentable. Trees easily stand - or fall - on their own merits, IMO.

The unnecessary requirement about moss is, again, contrived. Why must there be moss? And yet, even that moss must - I am certain - conform to Japanese traditions. In the Northwest, many of us just let varieties of local or invading species set up shop in our pots, and it often creates a gorgeous addition to the overall presentation of the tree. Such displays would be dismissed out of hand by this jury.

The requirements for pots and stands and wooden slabs and such will likewise carry the tacit assumption that the jury will pick only ones that their teachers would have approved of. I suppose, as "Fine Art", such a frame or pedestal is required, but again, I question the need to "elevate" bonsai to a "Fine Art". The motives of those who want to do so speak volumes to a shrink like myself.

The Japanese aesthetic is nothing else if not "refined," and even an occasional exuberance must be significantly restrained. The American psyche has little need for or interest in such. As Dan said, looking at the spectacular tree he would want to submit, "This is a fantastic tree! There probably aren't more than a handful of trees in whole country that are this exciting, exuding this much potential and energy. And it would never be selected."

Just to build on Dan's ideas, he has often said that the panel of judges at any bonsai competition should include at least one person who knew nothing at all about bonsai - someone picked off the street and asked to rank trees according to how much they liked them. The results, in his opinion, would be markedly different than they are now, and might result in a new energy, a very American energy, finally finding its way into the hobby.

I think he has a point. We are not Japanese. It would be an arguable point to suggest that those who are not at ease in their own culture here would probably do better to simply go live and practice bonsai over there. I do not believe Americans need to be "fundamentally transformed" in any way, nor their budding young American style of bonsai channeled into some foreign mold.

/rant/

I believe the ongoing rants of groper52 are an excellent vehicle to keep the conversation of bonsai in America moving forward. The worst thing is to have this art in America drift back into mediocrity and his constant reminders of danny's beginnings and contributions to American bonsai be for naught. So, I guess, keep rants coming.

 

[Jason]

It would be difficult to have much to say about your psyche:

Exactly my point. Good to see you back though.

 

[JudyB]

What bothers me about this, is the fact that some of the statements have been offputting to some that should be the very cornerstone of the American bonsai ideal. Who could not want Dan Robinson to place his works in a show that is showcasing what Americans are about bonsai-wise? To me, it would seem that figuring out how to get these trees in this type of endeavor is essential to showcase what the forefront of American bonsai is.

 

[Jason]

What bothers me about this, is the fact that some of the statements have been offputting to some that should be the very cornerstone of the American bonsai ideal. Who could not want Dan Robinson to place his works in a show that is showcasing what Americans are about bonsai-wise? To me, it would seem that figuring out how to get these trees in this type of endeavor is essential to showcase what the forefront of American bonsai is.

Dan Robinson could have a tree in that event in a heartbeat provided that was his desire.

 

[JudyB]

Jason, obviously that's a given. I would hope that the people in charge of the event would not only want these trees, but would actively seek these trees for the event.

 

[Jason]

Jason, obviously that's a given. I would hope that the people in charge of the event would not only want these trees, but would actively seek these trees for the event.

I think they are actively seeking participation by anyone who is interested. I think the suggestion that they are deliberately excluding anyone is inflammatory and has no basis in reality.

 

[Jason]

0ne thing about the emphasis for this contest is indeed captured in your choice of the word "scene". I believe there are many that hope to organize and consolidate American bonsai into a quasi-cult-like "scene" around a select few "masters" or "gurus", who have been trained in the correct view of reality by their Asian "masters/gurus". I've had intimate experience with Asian religious cults that have gravitated to the States over the past 50 years, and I have no interest in seeing American bonsai devolve into those sorts of shenanigans. Why must there be a bonsai "scene" at all? Why the need for a "scene"? What's the thinking?

/rant/

Scene= Gorst (Elanden)
Guru= Daniel Robinson
Acolyte= Will Hiltz

What is the thinking?

 

[Poink88]

I think they are actively seeking participation by anyone who is interested. I think the suggestion that they are deliberately excluding anyone is inflammatory and has no basis in reality.

IF the rumor I heard about the buy in to enter a tree is true...your statement could be interpreted by some as false.

Anyone here know for sure how much it is? I do not want to assume or rely on a rumor. Thanks!

 

[Victrinia Ridgeway]

$120 per accepted tree.

Reddog..... Think and say what you like about Will's rants. But disrespecting Daniel because of Will's comments just makes you look small. It's the tactic of a juvenile.

Kindly,

Victrinia

 

[dick benbow]

one of th reasons I am slowly extracating myself from 35 years in the koi world and decades on the chat lines are similar incidents such as this. So i quess i should have known that by switching over to bonsai, that it wouldn't be any different.

Andy capp had a great comic strip and my favorite among his Smoos, was the one that announced we have found the enemy and the enemy is us...

Recently one of the best contributors in the koi world resigned his position as director here in the USA because folks constantly nit-picked things. These were folks that couldn't hold a candle
to this man's contribution with their own.

In the koi world if you pollute the water the fish die, and in bonsai if you don't orchestrate basic soil and care, the result is also the same.

We should have learned by now that you gain more strength with honey then sour grapes.

This thread needs to be closed before it degenerates furthur.

 

[misfit11]

I find the constant bickering over Japanese vs. naturalistic style on this site to be so completely pointless and tiresome. It seems that some members on here are perpetually carrying the torch for one artist because he is a visionary, pioneer, maverick, whatever. That may be. I have utmost respect for Dan Robinson and what he has done for the art of bonsai. However, he is not the be all and end all of this hobby.

Both Japanese style and naturalistic style have their place and can be appreciated equally. Personally, I tend to prefer a more naturalistic style and consider Walter Pall to be my "favorite" artist. This does not mean that I can't appreciate Kimura, Boon, Ryan Neil, etc. etc. etc. Simply because these artists aren't moving the art from it's more traditional forms doesn't mean that it doesn't have value. When Picasso introduced cubism to the world should we have disregarded everything that came before?

I understand being biased with an artist when he is your teacher. I get that. We are a bit egocentric around these parts when it comes to REBS, Kathy Shaner, Bob Shimon, Jim Gremel etc. But the stuff about how they wouldn't accept one of Dan's works at the show so were not going to play with you guys... Come on. You don't know that. I think we are so caught up in the fact that he is such a roguey-rogue that the assumption is that he isn't welcome in the club. We all know what happens when we assume...

Alright. Let me have it.

Cory

 

[JudyB]

I think they are actively seeking participation by anyone who is interested. I think the suggestion that they are deliberately excluding anyone is inflammatory and has no basis in reality.

I do hope this is the case. I don't know anything firsthand about it, and am not suggesting that its a deliberate thing. I only hope it will be inclusive, and that all the best of American artists will participate.

 

[Darth Tanuki]

I recently attended Dan Robinson's critique at the LSBF convention in Texas. In conveying his points, he was quite anti-Japanese. He criticized and ridiculed the apprentice system jokingly calling them indentured servants. His only comments regarding the display itself were suggestions to get rid of the companion plants and stands and just put the trees on tables. He considers beautiful, classically styled pine "boring". He clearly relayed his view that every tree worth showing has to appear to have been through a "cataclysm" of some kind and be gnarly. For grins I counted how many times he said gnarly during the critique. The total came to 32. Dan without question has some great material but his style is not for everyone. However, to the followers of Dan. Please do not let the evident abhorrence for the Japanese style of bonsai and its success and admiration by many cause such narcissistic injury that you find it necessary to feel better by bashing a noble attempt of something like the Artisan's Cup.

 

[Poink88]

I recently attended Dan Robinson's critique at the LSBF convention in Texas.

We might have bumped into each other a few times w/o knowing it. I was at the same critique.

In fairness to Dan, I think the critique are spot on. He did not bash the trees based on the shape or anything rather what a particular tree conveys and the mixed signal it may send or what could be done to make it better as he sees it. He mostly gave input on the difference between a young tree, mature tree, and really old tree. What happens and why it happens as they go older. To me that is the biggest lesson. I did not interpret his words in anyway as against the "Classic Japanese styling" rather he stated his position why it doesn't reflect grand old trees in nature.

We all have different taste and free to choose any style and voice it. There is room for everyone so lets just enjoy.

 

[bonsaibp]

How did this turn into such a mess?
I don't understand the bashing of anyone for doing what they believe in.If one doesn't agree then find a different way. There are plenty available. Personally I find the range of bonsai in this country exciting. I don't care if its someone who is happy with a stick in a pot or someone who is trying to create a tree worthy of entry into the Kokufuten- they both have as much right to enjoy what they define as bonsai without being put down.
I think its fantastic that some groups of people are trying to elevate the status of the bonsai art and apprecaite and surpport their efforts. I also love the shear pleasure a beginner gets triming and wiring their first nana. The awesome thing about American bonsai is that there is room for all of us no matter what our level of appreciation. I think some people get so wrapped up in their prefrence that it becomes a case of do it like I do or you're not doing it right.
Not everyone cares whether or not bonsai becomes more accepted as fine art. Nor should they have too. For many it's a peaceful hobby. Some people are content just to keep a tree in a little pot alive. Some want to go further and learn more and maybe they'll work with bigger nursery stock or even a collected tree. Others are willing to spend the money to buy really good material from a bonsai nursery- can't aford anything more then small nursery or big box store plants. Some want to devote their life to it- go to Japan and study and come back and work as bonsai professionals. Some people can spend countless hours with their trees others have other time commitments. Some like classical Japanese style trees others like more naturalistic trees others just like a little tree in a pot.
Who are any of us to say that any of these people are doing it wrong? Or to put someone down for trying to do something that they believe in? Instead I think we should be welcoming all and accepting whatever the level of commitment they have. Thats not to say we shouldn't give everyone the opportunityto advance their appreciation but we shouldn't try to shove our way down thier throat. There is plenty of room for all. If one doesn't like one way of thinking and doing there is always a different way available to them.

 

[Darth Tanuki]

We all have different taste and free to choose any style and voice it. There is room for everyone so lets just enjoy.

Totally agree and that is my point and my reason for posting on this thread. I see no reason to bash The Artisan's Cup nor the organizers.

 

[Dan W.]

How did this turn into such a mess?
I don't understand the bashing of anyone for doing what they believe in.If one doesn't agree then find a different way. There are plenty available. Personally I find the range of bonsai in this country exciting. I don't care if its someone who is happy with a stick in a pot or someone who is trying to create a tree worthy of entry into the Kokufuten- they both have as much right to enjoy what they define as bonsai without being put down.
I think its fantastic that some groups of people are trying to elevate the status of the bonsai art and apprecaite and surpport their efforts. I also love the shear pleasure a beginner gets triming and wiring their first nana. The awesome thing about American bonsai is that there is room for all of us no matter what our level of appreciation. I think some people get so wrapped up in their prefrence that it becomes a case of do it like I do or you're not doing it right.
Not everyone cares whether or not bonsai becomes more accepted as fine art. Nor should they have too. For many it's a peaceful hobby. Some people are content just to keep a tree in a little pot alive. Some want to go further and learn more and maybe they'll work with bigger nursery stock or even a collected tree. Others are willing to spend the money to buy really good material from a bonsai nursery- can't aford anything more then small nursery or big box store plants. Some want to devote their life to it- go to Japan and study and come back and work as bonsai professionals. Some people can spend countless hours with their trees others have other time commitments. Some like classical Japanese style trees others like more naturalistic trees others just like a little tree in a pot.
Who are any of us to say that any of these people are doing it wrong? Or to put someone down for trying to do something that they believe in? Instead I think we should be welcoming all and accepting whatever the level of commitment they have. Thats not to say we shouldn't give everyone the opportunityto advance their appreciation but we shouldn't try to shove our way down thier throat. There is plenty of room for all. If one doesn't like one way of thinking and doing there is always a different way available to them.

Very well said Bob! And I believe we need to stop trying to be offended by someone who does it differently than we do. It is possible to assume that people make mistakes rather than intentionally offend us. (Disclaimer: I'm not saying anyone made a mistake; just that we're human and it happens. And pleasing everyone is an impossible feat for anyone.)

Keep doing bonsai and loving it!