Turface Is The Worst?

[milehigh_7]

Okay soil experts, just when I think I have it all figured out, it seems that Turface is going out of style. It seems that good ol' pumice is making a comeback.

Read this article by Michael Hagedorn:
http://crataegus.com/2013/11/24/life-without-turface/

Please respond with thoughts regarding turface. Is it the worst?

 

[Bonsai Nut]

I was a big proponent of Turface... for the first couple of years. It is still ok in small pots (mame / shohin). But in larger pots it was trapping and retaining too much moisture for me. I had some bigger trees that were getting root rot at the bottom of the pot. The top of the soil was bone dry and the bottom was soaking wet.

I have gone the pumice route... with about 20% organic. Nothing else. Some smaller trees I'm about to repot in crushed pumice that I crush on my garage floor with a sledge and then screen for particle size. I tossed all my Turface and have repotted all of my trees that were in Turface.

 

[Vin]

Rob, you just want to have the longest thread on the new format don't you?

 

[milehigh_7]

You caught me.

Seriously though I thought Turface and akadama were the universal particles...

 

[Vin]

...and lava, calidama, DE, growstones, etc. etc. are as well

 

[Bonsai Nut]

I personally prefer to pot in 100% mood stone, so I can tell how my trees are feeling.

But mood rings are so 1970's, and it is hard to find mood stone in quantity

 

[Vin]

Ask, and you shall receive: http://www.ebay.com/itm/Vintage-Moo...t=Vintage_Costume_Jewelry&hash=item2edb019e2d

 

[KennedyMarx]

I quit using Turface for my bonsai because of the small particle size. It stays so wet and there's little aeration. The plants I've grown with larger soil (1/4") have been so much healthier.

I am using what's left to amend my growing bed and maybe to make cuttings.

 

[Giga]

I use it to amend my small trees soil, shohin and mame. It goes in my grow out bed with what I had left.

 

[Si Nguyen]

Haven't read the Hagedorn article but I am pretty sure I would agree with it. I have used Turface for over 10 years and found that it is not that great. I still have some trees in 100% turface, but only ficuses. Ficus seem to do ok in 100% turface. One just have watch the watering. It allows me to water the ficus less often, like maybe 2-3 times a week in the summer instead of every day. It makes it easy to comb roots out too. But it is not good to use 100% turface in anything else. I think it is ok to mix it with pumice though, especially if your pumice is too big.

It is easier to analyze turface if you compare it with other things like akadama. The turface particle is too flat and too hard. The flat shape of it makes it packed down flat like tiny little bricks. It is not round and puffy like akadama or pumice. It doesn't absorb water as well as akadama. Akadama absorbs water very well and therefore creates airspaces in between the particles. It is the high humidity in these tiny air spaces that is good for new hair roots. As the akadama dries out, it releases moisture back into these tiny air spaces and helps maintain a steady humidity level in the soil. High humidity is good - standing water is bad. Turface particles don't absorb water as well, and therefore, the space between the particles stays soaking wet, in the mid and bottom of the pot. Top layer of the soil drained well, so it dried up very quickly, while the bottom stayed wet too long. Because of the strong capillary action between the flat particles, the water does not drain away easily from between the turface particles. And, the fine roots don't wrap around and grow into the turface particle like they do for akadama (or pumice or lava). I think if the Turface company can fire the turface a little less hard, thereby creating a softer and more porous particle, then turface would work very well for bonsai culture. But then it wouldn't work as well on baseball fields.

 

[Adair M]

I used turface in the past.

But I've been using the equal parts lava, pumice, akadama for the past 4 years.

No more turface for me.

 

[milehigh_7]

I really wish I would have stumbled across this before repotting this year. What's done is done. I will just have to watch it.

 

[0soyoung]

I still think Turface is the cat's meow.

 

[Eric Group]

Turface is ok when mixed with other stuff- like pumice, lava rocks, a little pine bark.. By itself or just mixed with potting soil/ compost I think you can have some problems.

There are other, better ingredients there, but from a cost to effectiveness standpoint Turface is pretty good stuff. I have had great success with it in the past and know plenty of people who have used it for years with success. Akadama may be better, but I am finding it breaks down and turns basically into muck if you touch it when it is wet. The mix of Akadama, pumice and Lava rocks seems to hold up pretty well so far as long as you don't go poking at it, but good LORD it is expensive! I think the Akadama was $40, pumice was around $30-$35 with shipping... And the lava rock is just plain hard to find in the sizes we need. It wasn't terribly expensive for the small bag I bought.. $8-$10 I guess... So, one batch of "DIRT" runs me about $80? I can buy a 50 pound bag of turface from a local supplier for like $20, mix it with some pine bark smalls and some pumice and wind up with a much larger amount of a mix that is pretty damn good for just barely over HALF the cost of the "premium" mix? Again, from a cost effectiveness standpoint... I like Turface... It has it's draw backs. I have NEVER had problems with it staying too wet. Not sure what it is mixed with in those scenarios... My issue has been when it dries out, it can be difficult to get it moistened up sufficiently again. I have found this especially true when the plants come inside. The few tropicals I have are repelling water like they are Alergic to it when I first start to water them after they are dry... I think with turface's shape being so flat and hard, it tends to settle and compact a bit which is the reason you need a decent amount of pumice or something for aeration in the mix... Other than that, it is good stuff that normally drains well, retains some- but not too much- moisture, never breaks down or turns into "muck", it is cheap, easy for me to find.... I am going to keep experimenting and do more side by side comparisons this year to see how it works out compared to Akadama mixes, but the growth I have seen in Turface mixes has me pretty well convinced it is just fine.

In the end It all goes back to how you care for the tree... If you are over or under watering or adding the wrong types or amounts of chemicals... You will have poor results no matter what mix you are using! I still use a "pro mix" type of potting soil to grow out a lot of my trees- basically peat moss and Pearlite- and trees LOVE IT. They make a nice fine, compact root system, grow like weeds...

 

[Si Nguyen]

I have used turface in a few combinations.
Turface+pumice+lava is ok. In a small pot, this combo will dry out faster than akadama+pumice+lava.
Turface+peat is not safe. Very hard to water well. It will dry out on top very quickly and repel water away from the center of the root ball. The peat fibers would repel water when it is completely dried out. But in a small pot, one can do the pot dunking method and water less often.
Turface+perlite+peat is safe, but too light. Good for cuttings.
Turface (Schultz aquatic pond soil at HomeDepot) + cactus mix (from HomeDepot) is a quick and safe mix to use, especially in large quantity. Everybody has a HomeDepot in their city by now.

Basically, turface is a cheap filler for you soil mix, but if you could find pumice then use pumice instead. Dry Stall, which is pumice used for horse stalls, is available everywhere. It maybe cheaper than turface. It should not be hard to find this pumice anywhere in this country. There are horse or farm supplies stores in every county in America even in New York City. I have been using 100% pumice (and Dry Stall brand) for 10-15 years now and it works pretty good. Clean and safe. Just have to water a little bit more often. It has less salt build up too, because it drains well.

 

[bonhe]

I really wish I would have stumbled across this before repotting this year. What's done is done. I will just have to watch it.

Hi Milehigh_7, I think you will be OK! ;-)
Yours and my area weather are almost the same, hot and dry! Our area soil is needed more moisture to survive the hot environment. I has been using 100% turface on some of my Korean black pine for almost 6 years and they are doing fine. However, I don't buy turface any more because it is too expensive compared with pumice and it is more heavier than pumice. Nowadays, I use more organic content such as fir bark (I recently found a forest humus made from the fir bark which is an excellent material since it supplies the moisture, humus, and acidity to the soil (our water is super hard, isn't it?). I use forest humus mixed with pumice for tree in training, ratio depending on conifer or non-conifer. Hope this help!
Bonhe

 

[coh]

Dry Stall, which is pumice used for horse stalls, is available everywhere. It maybe cheaper than turface. It should not be hard to find this pumice anywhere in this country. There are horse or farm supplies stores in every county in America even in New York City. I have been using 100% pumice (and Dry Stall brand) for 10-15 years now and it works pretty good. Clean and safe. Just have to water a little bit more often. It has less salt build up too, because it drains well.

I'm going to avoid the whole turface discussion because there's nothing new to say (and we had a long thread about the Hagedorn article shortly after it first appeared). But, I can say that your statement about "dry stall being available everywhere" is simply not true. I've been looking for it locally for several years. I live in a rural area of western NY with lots of farms, lots of people with horses, lots of feed/grain type stores. None carry dry stall and no one has even heard of it. You can get "stall dry" but it's not the same.

And I know many others around the country have been unable to get it either.

 

[Si Nguyen]

I'm going to avoid the whole turface discussion because there's nothing new to say (and we had a long thread about the Hagedorn article shortly after it first appeared). But, I can say that your statement about "dry stall being available everywhere" is simply not true. I've been looking for it locally for several years. I live in a rural area of western NY with lots of farms, lots of people with horses, lots of feed/grain type stores. None carry dry stall and no one has even heard of it. You can get "stall dry" but it's not the same.

And I know many others around the country have been unable to get it either.

I guess I stand corrected. Your area may be too remote. I know Dry Stall is sold thru Agway in a lot of feed and farm supply stores, and Agway stuffs are almost everywhere. May be you could email Dry Stall for a free sample to be sent to your local feed store and see if they could start carrying it. It is packaged for freight very well. It is very popular here in CA. People sell it on local Craigslists here, and we don't even have that much horses.

 

[Bunjeh]

There are different types of Turface. Most use MVP but I have been using All Sport. I have yet to find a decent supplier for pumice in the local area so I have been using Diatomacious Earth (50%) Turface All Sport (30%) and Decomposed Pine Bark (20%) on everything. In the PACNW we get lots of rain in the winter and then a 90 day drought in the summer. I need something that works in both extremes. The guy who wrote this article is in Portland OR, I believe, so similar climate. Don't know. I have had no problems. As we all create our own microclimate,..we have to do what works best for us.

 

[coh]

I guess I stand corrected. Your area may be too remote. I know Dry Stall is sold thru Agway in a lot of feed and farm supply stores, and Agway stuffs are almost everywhere. May be you could email Dry Stall for a free sample to be sent to your local feed store and see if they could start carrying it. It is packaged for freight very well. It is very popular here in CA. People sell it on local Craigslists here, and we don't even have that much horses.

We are not that remote. Rochester is a city of 200,000+. There is an Agway distributor in the area and I have contacted them, was told they would not (or could not, can't remember) get it in.

Have considered just ordering a pallet of pumice from somewhere out west (like Wee Tree) but I don't really have a good place to store 2000 pounds of pumice. If I could find a few people interested in splitting an order locally I'd do it in a second (it works out to be much cheaper, even with shipping, compared to ordering individual flate rate boxes)