Walter Pall's new book.

I went to the UK bonsai site where they were discussing the book, and the topic of cut paste was discussed. Evidently the author is of the opinion that cut paste is not needed.

Oh, no... Not again! I fought that battle once!
Adair, this is exactly the kind of stuff I'm talking about. There is a common scientific concept that sealing pruning cuts disrupts the compartmentalization and proper healing of the wound leaving the tree open to infection. This might be plausible in theory, however in practice you, me and countless others have found that, in general, wounds heal more quickly and thoroughly if the are cleaned and sealed from water and air.
This is the difference between theory and practice, between experience and concepts. This example alone demonstrates the author of the above book is relying on certain contemporary hearsay more than practical experience. If you want to learn about a subject, consult someone who has lived and breathed it for most of there lives.
 
Adair, this is exactly the kind of stuff I'm talking about. There is a common scientific concept that sealing pruning cuts disrupts the compartmentalization and proper healing of the wound leaving the tree open to infection. This might be plausible in theory, however in practice you, me and countless others have found that, in general, wounds heal more quickly and thoroughly if the are cleaned and sealed from water and air.
This is the difference between theory and practice, between experience and concepts. This example alone demonstrates the author of the above book is relying on certain contemporary hearsay more than practical experience. If you want to learn about a subject, consult someone who has lived and breathed it for most of there lives.
I agree.

I have Zelkova that I purchased that has a 4 inch trunk. It had been chopped, and new branches started. It had been chopped several years prior to me purchasing it.

No cut paste had been used.

The chop on the top was beginning to callous over, at least on one side. The other side experienced die back. The bark was still there, but it was dead for about two inches below the chop. The heartwood had opened up, small cracks allowed water to get in, and it was beginning to be easily broken.

Now anyone with any experience with Zelkova knows it's heartwood is extremely hard. It's great furniture wood. Very dense.

So, when I finally got around to working the tree, I went after the dead wood with a die grinder and a "Terrier bit" I bought from Graham Potter. The damaged wood was easy to remove, until I got down to the I damaged heartwood. That stuff is hard! The Terrier was able to carve it, but it's really dense wood. I protected it with cut paste. The putty kind.

From time to time, every 6 months or so, I remove the putty, and check on it, and it is callousing over. But, what's more, the putty is protecting the heartwood. It's not opening and splitting. It's staying solid. It's not going to rot like it did before when it was uncovered.

Now folks, I don't have to have a degree in Horticulture to determine that using cut paste is beneficial to this tree! If I had left that wound uncovered, it would eventually have resulted in a hollow trunk, which I did not want!

In a natural forest situation, the tree can mostly cover over wounds. But, what often occurs is interior rot sets in. You can't see it until you cut the tree down, but it's hollow inside. I just cleared 5 acres of oak forest to create pasture land. Many, many of the trees were hollow inside. Evidently red oak is more prone to this than white oak.

It's fine to have an open mind to learn new things. Just make sure those new things are relevant to your goals. Check the evidence to see if it applies to your situation.

The proof offered to me about how tree sealant was worthless was based upon a study of trees in a forest with the type of cuts we don't generally do, on species of trees we don't use for bonsai. One wound they evaluated was a "core sample", a hole drilled straight thru the tree. We might do something like that when thread grafting a maple, but there's no reason to do something like that to a pine. And the sealant they used was that black tar based paint. Not the same kind of stuff we use. I reject the results of that study because it is so vastly different than what we do with our bonsai.

I would take it with a grain of salt.
 
that debate still seems to be hot lol as far as i'm concerned it's indeed a problem of comparing apples and oranges, both opinions are actually RIGHT but in different contexts, collar cut and no paste is good for non bonsai tree, because all you want is the more "efficient healing". In bonsai, we want "aesthetic healing" hence flush cuts and cut paste to avoid die back (because die back can occur when you cut shorter than collar cut, what is typically what we do since collar cuts would create conicity defects on a tree the size of a bonsai unless you plan doing an uro out of it) and have a RAPID and AESTHETIC callousing. But i'm convinced too that cut paste don't have any protective action regarding pathogens.
 
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I agree.

I have Zelkova that I purchased that has a 4 inch trunk. It had been chopped, and new branches started. It had been chopped several years prior to me purchasing it.

No cut paste had been used.

The chop on the top was beginning to callous over, at least on one side. The other side experienced die back. The bark was still there, but it was dead for about two inches below the chop. The heartwood had opened up, small cracks allowed water to get in, and it was beginning to be easily broken.

Now anyone with any experience with Zelkova knows it's heartwood is extremely hard. It's great furniture wood. Very dense.

So, when I finally got around to working the tree, I went after the dead wood with a die grinder and a "Terrier bit" I bought from Graham Potter. The damaged wood was easy to remove, until I got down to the I damaged heartwood. That stuff is hard! The Terrier was able to carve it, but it's really dense wood. I protected it with cut paste. The putty kind.

From time to time, every 6 months or so, I remove the putty, and check on it, and it is callousing over. But, what's more, the putty is protecting the heartwood. It's not opening and splitting. It's staying solid. It's not going to rot like it did before when it was uncovered.

Now folks, I don't have to have a degree in Horticulture to determine that using cut paste is beneficial to this tree! If I had left that wound uncovered, it would eventually have resulted in a hollow trunk, which I did not want!

In a natural forest situation, the tree can mostly cover over wounds. But, what often occurs is interior rot sets in. You can't see it until you cut the tree down, but it's hollow inside. I just cleared 5 acres of oak forest to create pasture land. Many, many of the trees were hollow inside. Evidently red oak is more prone to this than white oak.

It's fine to have an open mind to learn new things. Just make sure those new things are relevant to your goals. Check the evidence to see if it applies to your situation.

The proof offered to me about how tree sealant was worthless was based upon a study of trees in a forest with the type of cuts we don't generally do, on species of trees we don't use for bonsai. One wound they evaluated was a "core sample", a hole drilled straight thru the tree. We might do something like that when thread grafting a maple, but there's no reason to do something like that to a pine. And the sealant they used was that black tar based paint. Not the same kind of stuff we use. I reject the results of that study because it is so vastly different than what we do with our bonsai.

I would take it with a grain of salt.

...confirmative. This Spring cuts...
...on trident:

IMAG1032.jpg IMAG1033.jpg

...on CHE:

IMAG1034.jpg IMAG1036.jpg
 
"papymandarin, post: . But i'm convinced too that cut paste don't have any protective action regarding pathogens
.

Well as far as I know, most wood rotting fungi require oxygen to survive. A good sealer cuts out o2. Also, if no spores have settled on the cut, sealing it will keep them out.
I have trees in my garden which are very prone to attack by borers. If I paint the cut with tar, They don't touch it. If I don't, you can bet that's where you will find a hole. Apparently these beetles have not heard about compartmentalization! Where the borers go, rot follows.
 
again it all depend on context , for instance in my climate/location i only put cut paste on the margins of a big cut, if i seal all the cut, it rots below the paste. Moreover borers are usually attracted by volatiles substances emitted from the cut by the tree, it's then seems quite logical to me than sealing the cut prevents it in your case, when i was talking pathogens i was more thinking microorganisms rather than insects. Here if i don't want a large cut to rot, whether i put cut paste or not, i have to treat exposed wood with lime sulfur beforehand repeatedly until callous covers it
 
again it all depend on context , for instance in my climate/location i only put cut paste on the margins of a big cut, if i seal all the cut, it rots below the paste. Moreover borers are usually attracted by volatiles substances emitted from the cut by the tree, it's then seems quite logical to me than sealing the cut prevents it in your case, when i was talking pathogens i was more thinking microorganisms rather than insects. Here if i don't want a large cut to rot, whether i put cut paste or not, i have to treat exposed wood with lime sulfur beforehand repeatedly until callous covers it
Well, there's a sealer, TopJin, it's the orange stuff, that supposedly has antibacterial and anti fungal properties. I use it on azalea as they are very prone to die back. Even after it dries, it is still somewhat water soluable, so I put a layer of the grey putty on top of it the next day. It also covers over the orange!
 
Well, there's a sealer, TopJin, it's the orange stuff, that supposedly has antibacterial and anti fungal properties. I use it on azalea as they are very prone to die back. Even after it dries, it is still somewhat water soluable, so I put a layer of the grey putty on top of it the next day. It also covers over the orange!

The orange fades to clear after a few weeks

Scott
 
The orange fades to clear after a few weeks

Scott
I've noticed that. Kinda like Elmer's glue. I've also noticed that it is less firmly attached. So, perhaps less protective. Putting the putty stuff on top keeps the seal against the elements working.
 
again it all depend on context , for instance in my climate/location i only put cut paste on the margins of a big cut, if i seal all the cut, it rots below the paste. Moreover borers are usually attracted by volatiles substances emitted from the cut by the tree, it's then seems quite logical to me than sealing the cut prevents it in your case, when i was talking pathogens i was more thinking microorganisms rather than insects. Here if i don't want a large cut to rot, whether i put cut paste or not, i have to treat exposed wood with lime sulfur beforehand repeatedly until callous covers it

I've been doing it both ways - some cuts get completely covered in cut paste, others I've just put it on around the cut over the callusing area. So far I don't see any difference. @Adair M , any thoughts? Do you routinely cover the entire wound, or is it dependent on the species and/or size of the cut?

The other issue is interesting (cuts releasing volatiles that attract borers). This spring I did a trunk chop on a tree in my growing bed (tulip poplar), and it attracted a swarm of bark beetles that had never attacked that tree before. They wound up killing the trunk to the ground. I've recently read somewhere the recommendation to make those kinds of large cuts earlier, in winter instead of spring, to avoid the release of so many "stress chemicals" (for lack of a better term). Interesting stuff. Maybe I need to look into using some kind of sealant for trunk chops.
 
Sifu,

by any chance do you think it is an acrylic binder with colorant and anti - x components.
Sounds like liquid band aids.

Our attitude is essentially on trees that heal poorly - like the Sageretia t - make only small cuts and start with seedlings.

Had enough of trees that rotted away, especially a fine Sageretia from China.
Good Day
Anthony

* congrats on your 5000+ !!!!!
 
the release of so many "stress chemicals"
That's exactly the way I see and describe it. That is one way plants communicate in the biological network. I think they send out chemical signals all the time. Its up to us to determine/understand when and why, so we can improve our horticultural knowledge/understanding.
 
Adair, this is exactly the kind of stuff I'm talking about. There is a common scientific concept that sealing pruning cuts disrupts the compartmentalization and proper healing of the wound leaving the tree open to infection. This might be plausible in theory, however in practice you, me and countless others have found that, in general, wounds heal more quickly and thoroughly if the are cleaned and sealed from water and air.
This is the difference between theory and practice, between experience and concepts. This example alone demonstrates the author of the above book is relying on certain contemporary hearsay more than practical experience. If you want to learn about a subject, consult someone who has lived and breathed it for most of there lives.
Hah, I just came over this post. This one is very interesting. In the past, doctors learned that they needed to let the wound expose to the air so that the oxygen and air would help the wound heal. Later on, they recognized it was wrong. The wound needed to be kept moist so that the living cell can grows over the wound much faster.
Bonhe
 
Then they discovered that they were wrong and went back to leting the wound breath. Tha'st what they did with us in Viet Nam. They left the wounds open for three days so that the wound could heal from the inside out, then they closed it up. I guess my point is if you don't like this decision wait it'll change.
 
Sifu,

by any chance do you think it is an acrylic binder with colorant and anti - x components.
Sounds like liquid band aids.

Our attitude is essentially on trees that heal poorly - like the Sageretia t - make only small cuts and start with seedlings.

Had enough of trees that rotted away, especially a fine Sageretia from China.
Good Day
Anthony

* congrats on your 5000+ !!!!!
Anthony,

I have no idea what TopJin is made of. The box and the insert, and the tube is written entirely in Japanese. It's consistency is like Elmer's glue. Only it's orange. When it dries, it feels like orange Elmer's glue.

On fact, back when I took lessons from David Cook, we used Elmer's as cut paste.

I have no hard evidence about the anti fungal and anti biotic properties of TopJin other than that's what I've been told by others.

You can get it from Amazon.
 
Then they discovered that they were wrong and went back to leting the wound breath. Tha'st what they did with us in Viet Nam. They left the wounds open for three days so that the wound could heal from the inside out, then they closed it up. I guess my point is if you don't like this decision wait it'll change.
It depends on how deep and how dirty the wound is, so the surgeon can decide how to treat the wound. The wounds happened in the war is different ball game because they are always dirty with a lot of dead tissue, besides the time of the wound is mostly not suitable for primary closure (means close the wound up right away) any more. If the surgeon wants to close the wound right away, he/or she must make sure that the wound will not get anaerobic infection! I don't think any surgeon can make sure 100%. They don't want to take a risk! Because of that, the surgeon had to decide to let the wound open, and after 3-5 days, if the wound are still clean and looks healthy, at that time, they will close the wound (called secondary closure)
Bonhe
p/s: I am so sorry to disturb this topic.
 
And I have finished reading now.
I'm a touch disappointed that it finished if I'm honest, I nearly enjoyed that like a fiction book. It was a good read covering interesting topics and definitely opened my eyes and has me thinking about my trees more about what I have done to them in the past and how I will do things to them in the future.
I know Walter say's it is not necessarily a book for beginners and I can see why one can say that however I think it is a great book for beginners who like some heavyish reading. It is probably a good book for those of us starting out who already have 3 or 4 starter books and trees and want to just know more.

I will certainly try some things mentioned in the book, not that they aren't mentioned elsewhere in one way or another but for the first time by explaining the processes in detail and scientifically hit home with me, in fact I would like it to have been even more thorough but I suppose then you are heading into textbook territory and I think this is more accessible and easier than that but in a good way.

As for judging the content and any points that may be "controversial" then my bonsai experience is not enough to really comment on but it has clearly explained symptoms of some of the mistakes I have made in a way that is more substantial than just rot or bugs etc...
It has also confirmed some of my suspicions, things that I have thought I will try when I next repot or when the season changes.

I'm not saying this is a definitive bonsai book because there are so many variables in everything related to bonsai and if something works well for you then why change it but it is good to have as a reference no doubt. I wouldn't think anything mentioned in the book is detrimental to our trees.

Still I'm tasking Mrs Starfox with nicking a bunch of those stickers you put on the top of documents and pages for easy reference from work as I will be going back to it for sure.
 
Thank You. I might be able to meet you in Harrisburg. We are planing a trip to Philidelphia in September.
Can you share the address of the nursery please? It looks like we will be going by that location.
 
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