I think I would have tried making some air layers.
@Brian Van Fleet, the Zuisho I bought from Julian, I'm going to try to take a layer off the apex of mine.
Boon took cuttings from some branches I pruned off, and they are growing.
Zuisho White Pine
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@Brian Van Fleet, the Zuisho I bought from Julian, I'm going to try to take a layer off the apex of mine.
Boon took cuttings from some branches I pruned off, and they are growing.
Lewiscarnes
Yamadori
Sorry if this has already answered. Will you wire the bottom branches up or leave them alone?
Dav4
Drop Branch Murphy
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If you're not in a rush...and since you've been growing this one out for a decade, I'd say you're not...I'd go with the Left branch as the next segment of trunk. Initially, I thought the 2 trunk design might be better, but there just doesn't seem to be enough taper there. By the way, the bark developing at the base is NICE!
Brian Van Fleet
Pretty Fly for a Bonsai Guy
I agree @Dav4 and that's the direction I'm leaning. If I'm committed to taper and movement, it's the only logical next step. I've never once looked back at something I grew out and wished I would have left a branch/trunk section longer!
@Lewiscarnes I probably won't wire anything until I have determined which shoots are going to become final branches.
@Lewiscarnes I probably won't wire anything until I have determined which shoots are going to become final branches.
Is that the JBP bark?
Brian Van Fleet
Pretty Fly for a Bonsai Guy
It is. Here is the graft line; a shot from about 5 years ago when it was still pretty green, and a current shot of the same angle. Brent is known for grafting them pretty low, and this front nearly puts it at the soil level. I wouldn't be opposed to letting it ground-layer over time.
That is a good graft.
I've heard several, somewhat conflicting, stories about grafted Zuisho. The story I've heard from Boon is that around 60 .years old, the grafted Zuishos are all failing because the graft union fails because of the different gtowth rate of JBP and the Zuisho. He tells me he hears this from Daisaku and Akio. So, he tells me the way to go is to ground layer the zuisho. Let it have two root systems for a couple years, then remove the JBP. (Same for Kokonoe).
Juan told me he heard it was the ones on their own roots that were failing. He said they grow so rapidly when they're young that they're just not long lived. But, he said the grafts, on the more robust JBP stock are doing fine!
Two completely different stories!
I'm leaning towards Boon's version since he atttibutes it to Daisaku and Akio. Daisaku in particular is a JWP expert.
I don't know if there's anything you have to do to make a ground layer happen, or whether you have to strip out a section of bark.
Anyway, good luck with whichever way you choose to go!
I've heard several, somewhat conflicting, stories about grafted Zuisho. The story I've heard from Boon is that around 60 .years old, the grafted Zuishos are all failing because the graft union fails because of the different gtowth rate of JBP and the Zuisho. He tells me he hears this from Daisaku and Akio. So, he tells me the way to go is to ground layer the zuisho. Let it have two root systems for a couple years, then remove the JBP. (Same for Kokonoe).
Juan told me he heard it was the ones on their own roots that were failing. He said they grow so rapidly when they're young that they're just not long lived. But, he said the grafts, on the more robust JBP stock are doing fine!
Two completely different stories!
I'm leaning towards Boon's version since he atttibutes it to Daisaku and Akio. Daisaku in particular is a JWP expert.
I don't know if there's anything you have to do to make a ground layer happen, or whether you have to strip out a section of bark.
Anyway, good luck with whichever way you choose to go!
barrosinc
Masterpiece
why not leave them both if they are that close together?
The jbp can be left below soil level? Is that a possibility?
Because then the rootball would be too big, too deep.
Brian Van Fleet
Pretty Fly for a Bonsai Guy
It’s been nearly 2 years since this was cut back for the first time. It’s been in the ground since, and kind of behind a post, so it’s difficult to photograph. The trunk is now 3” wide, and it’s about 16” tall. Still haven’t decided if I’m going to chop the central trunk, or work with it. Either way, there is no harm in letting it keep growing for a couple more years.
WorkingOnPatience
Sapling
I just bought these two untrained 2 year air layers from Julian Adams today. He’s got some awesome older trained Zuishu from air layers. I’m debating whether to plant one in the ground or not.
Attachments
I would choose a grow box rather than grow in the ground. Julian uses 100% Turface as his soil medium. A slightly coarser soil mix is what I would recommend. I have two of Julian’s airlayers, and they have really thrived once I moved them into APL. I do use Julian’s micronutrients on all my white pines every spring.
About your trees: I see some really long internodes. They’re too long to be used for bonsai. Rather than simply cut back, I would take airlayers since it’s Zuisho.
A warning about Zuisho: it’s a dwarf cultivar. But, at the same time it’s a vigorous cultivar! This combo means that sometimes it wants to make thick branches. That is, branches seem to thicken, but the trunk does not. If that occurs, your tree can look disproportionate. So... be vigalent about keeping the branches from thickening too much too fast. Keep them cut back.
And plan on wiring and removing wire often! Because the branches thicken quickly, wire cuts in quickly. If you want to minimize wire scars, you will have to keep watch on it and remove it as soon as you notice any cut in.
WorkingOnPatience
Sapling
Yeah my plan is to air layer some of those branches in the future. Just not sure when. This was one of the reasons I chose these, for their potential and the air layer potentials. I actually got some tips from him on design ideas. He was really helpful. He said he uses 80% turface and 20% mix of peat and chicken grit. He also gave me a bottle of nutrients as well.
Brian Van Fleet
Pretty Fly for a Bonsai Guy
The long shoots are not going to be part of your design, but they will be useful for thickening the trunk. Look back over this progression thread; it’s now over 9 years running. The subject Zuisho goes through lanky phases and then thickens up. It backbuds well, so just keep an eye on the interior shoots and make sure you have some in good places that can become final branches. Eventually you will want to eliminate heavy sacrifice branches. Just find the balance between allowing them to work, and preventing a huge, poorly-placed scar resulting from their removal. And even better, start a progression thread for yours as well.
I think I’m going to air-layer mine just above the first whorl of branches and let the first left branch become the next section of trunk. I’ll probably do that next spring.
Wilson
Masterpiece
Brian how long does a zuisho airlayer generally take until you can seperate them? Love this progression, many thanks for sharing!
WorkingOnPatience
Sapling
Julian said he typically will start the air layer in March and it’s usually ready to remove by August. Tends to take a while longer than most trees.
WorkingOnPatience
Sapling
Would it be a good idea to trim back some of the extending “candles” at this point? Will that promote shorter internodes? Any particular time of year better/worse for doing this? Or would it be best to just let it grow unchecked for awhile? These are the first pines I’ve worked with.
Brian Van Fleet
Pretty Fly for a Bonsai Guy
Fall is best for pruning, but as you can see, I’m letting mine grow for several years at a time without pruning. This is how you get the trunk to fatten up. See how even the low primary branches still have plenty of interior shoots from which to build the final branch structure? Also, note how dense this tree is, with no effort. Enjoy your trees, let them grow some.
