Charcoal as soil additive/ top dressing?

Smoke

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For a group, not all of you specifically, but bonsai geeks in general, in the pursuit of soil makings for the perfect inorganic soil mix, why all the ferver about adding wood back into a soil mix?

Does anyone ask why, or do you just do it because the Japanese think it does magical things to the soil?
 

Dav4

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For a group, not all of you specifically, but bonsai geeks in general, in the pursuit of soil makings for the perfect inorganic soil mix, why all the ferver about adding wood back into a soil mix?

Does anyone ask why, or do you just do it because the Japanese think it does magical things to the soil?

Beneficial microorganisms...
 

wireme

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I add the stuff for the benefit of soil microorganisms. Aiming for strong plants with increased host defense systems and increased disease/drought/thermal tolerance. Evidence suggests that addition of charcoal decreases saprophytic fungi and increases am fungi. Also changes to soil bacterium and changes to nutrient cycling durations.

My favorite source is burnt decaying logs on the forest floor. If I don't have that it comes from my fireplace or fire pit..
 

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Skinnygoomba

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For a group, not all of you specifically, but bonsai geeks in general, in the pursuit of soil makings for the perfect inorganic soil mix, why all the ferver about adding wood back into a soil mix?

Does anyone ask why, or do you just do it because the Japanese think it does magical things to the soil?

I'm just curious, like a cat.

Although it would be easy to conclude that because the experienced Japanese do it (or at least the one in question) that its a good thing to do, I would personally like to know the particulars.
 

Bonsai Nut

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As far as water conditioning goes, high-grade activated charcoal can be used for physical filtration (it has extremely high surface area) or chemical filtration (it bonds positive ions). However both of these uses require the charcoal so come in direct contact with the water - ie the water has to pass through/over the media. I question whether charcoal scattered loosely in a soil mix would be effective.

That said, I have seen charcoal mentioned several times in soil mixes in Japan.
 

Smoke

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Charcoal is made by burning wood in a reducing (vacuum) atmosphere. It is usually made from hardwood with low pitch content.

Activated charcoal is made from coconut shells and bamboo woods because it has a porous nature to begin with. the wood is burnt in a reducing atmosphere and then injected with oxygen at the end which burns out the insides of the wood pourosity. Regular charcoal does not have this good internal pourosity. The introduction of oxygen under vacuum draws the oxidizer deep inside the wood allowing a good burn throughout.

Good activated charcoal will sizzle when introduced to water. The action of the water inbibing all the porosity will force out all the air and make a cool sound. Not only that, it smokes!

Now, understanding what the difference is what are the benifits to each in the case of bonsai soil?
Charcoal does three things to soil.
1. It acidifies the soil
2. It adds benificial humic acid to the soil
3. It provides a place for bacteria to grow to aid in the breakdown of organic fertlizer into compounds usable to the plants roots.

The addition of wood either as wood or charcoal will acidify soil. The good thing about charcoal is that it does it without robbing nitrogen during its decomposition process.

The number one place to get superior humic acid is from leonardite, a type of soft coal. Basicly a type of more decomposed charcoal. Coal being just highly compressed charcoal.

Porosity is paramount is providing a home for benificial bacteria in the soil used in the breakdown of fertilizer.

Adding charcoal to the top of the soil is benificial for the humic acid it may release due to watering, but not the production of nitrifying bacteria within the charcoal. Mixing it in the soil will provide for that.

If adding wood to your mix, and charcoal will break down depending on repotting schedules, then adding humic acid to a soil mix will remove the need for the charcoal in the first place. The addition of humic acid as a liquid or in fertlizer begins to acidify the soil immediately. The addition of pumice in the soil provides the habitat for the nitrifying bacteria to breakdown fertlizer.

Or....just do it more simply by making a soil mix of 1/3 akadama, 1/3 lava and 1/3 pumice. Use organic fertilizer cakes to jump start the humic acid in the fertilizer and you have done the same thing without the addition of another hyped Japanese soil component.
 

Eric Group

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Charcoal is made by burning wood in a reducing (vacuum) atmosphere. It is usually made from hardwood with low pitch content.

Activated charcoal is made from coconut shells and bamboo woods because it has a porous nature to begin with. the wood is burnt in a reducing atmosphere and then injected with oxygen at the end which burns out the insides of the wood pourosity. Regular charcoal does not have this good internal pourosity. The introduction of oxygen under vacuum draws the oxidizer deep inside the wood allowing a good burn throughout.

Good activated charcoal will sizzle when introduced to water. The action of the water inbibing all the porosity will force out all the air and make a cool sound. Not only that, it smokes!

Now, understanding what the difference is what are the benifits to each in the case of bonsai soil?
Charcoal does three things to soil.
1. It acidifies the soil
2. It adds benificial humic acid to the soil
3. It provides a place for bacteria to grow to aid in the breakdown of organic fertlizer into compounds usable to the plants roots.

The addition of wood either as wood or charcoal will acidify soil. The good thing about charcoal is that it does it without robbing nitrogen during its decomposition process.

The number one place to get superior humic acid is from leonardite, a type of soft coal. Basicly a type of more decomposed charcoal. Coal being just highly compressed charcoal.

Porosity is paramount is providing a home for benificial bacteria in the soil used in the breakdown of fertilizer.

Adding charcoal to the top of the soil is benificial for the humic acid it may release due to watering, but not the production of nitrifying bacteria within the charcoal. Mixing it in the soil will provide for that.

If adding wood to your mix, and charcoal will break down depending on repotting schedules, then adding humic acid to a soil mix will remove the need for the charcoal in the first place. The addition of humic acid as a liquid or in fertlizer begins to acidify the soil immediately. The addition of pumice in the soil provides the habitat for the nitrifying bacteria to breakdown fertlizer.

Or....just do it more simply by making a soil mix of 1/3 akadama, 1/3 lava and 1/3 pumice. Use organic fertilizer cakes to jump start the humic acid in the fertilizer and you have done the same thing without the addition of another hyped Japanese soil component.

So, what you are basically saying is that Charcoal provides the same chemical elements as pumice, and the beneficial micro organisms and bacteria will develop fine as long as there is sufficient porosity in the soil and you use organic ferts..?
 

Smoke

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No not the chemical elements of pumice. Pumice adds nothing to the soil except a home for bacteria via surface area and a reservoir for water retention. The organic fertlizer adds the chemical elements via humic acid and a food source for the nitrifying bacteria to feed on while living in the pumice or charcoal.

If charcoal was fertlizer it would kill two birds with one stone. Humic acid is not fertlizer just a catylist to help the tree take in more fertlizer. Since you fertlize anyway and you have pumice as a soil constituate the charcoal does nothing more than become a talking point about how one is doing what the Japanese do. Sort of like owning a set of Masakuni tools.
 

Eric Group

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No not the chemical elements of pumice. Pumice adds nothing to the soil except a home for bacteria via surface area and a reservoir for water retention. The organic fertlizer adds the chemical elements via humic acid and a food source for the nitrifying bacteria to feed on while living in the pumice or charcoal.

If charcoal was fertlizer it would kill two birds with one stone. Humic acid is not fertlizer just a catylist to help the tree take in more fertlizer. Since you fertlize anyway and you have pumice as a soil constituate the charcoal does nothing more than become a talking point about how one is doing what the Japanese do. Sort of like owning a set of Masakuni tools.

So, you seem certain there is no advantage to using both. I am not sure anybody uses massive quantities of charcoal in the soil, just small amounts in relation to pumice, Akadama, lava, turface.. (had to throw that last one in there! Lol)

I would assume that different levels of moisture retention, chemical uptake, acidity... Can be obtained by using or not using charcoal and while your science seems sound, the only way to prove scientific theory is through practice / experimentation right? So should hundreds of years of practice/ experimentation from generations of successful Bonsai care at a place like this Bonsai museum in Japan that Bill visited be ignored or discounted because in theory the charcoal shouldn't be needed if the right soil components and ferts are used? I don't think it is just a talking point or people trying to "do what the cool kids do" as much as it is people emulating successful practices and techniques. I am sure if you ask enough people a reasonable argument could be made for the lack of a significant difference in nutrient absorption, moisture retention and root growth between say turface and Akadama for example- I say this because I have seen this argument made on this very site numerous times- yet you still use Akadama because it works for you right? Is that just a case of you using it simply as a talking point about how you Do what the Japanese do?

I am not arguing with you smoke, or trashing you so please don't get angry or defensive with me, just furthering the discussion a bit because while I do appreciate the info you posted here and I can follow your points... I don't see a huge difference between using a little charcoal in your mix (which is recommended by numerous advanced professionals in this country and Japan) IF IT PRODUCES POSITIVE RESULTS vs using Akadama instead of a cheaper substrate like say turface. I view each example as part of the same goal- trying different substrates to produce optimal results.

Personally I spent a long time convincing myself I could use cheaper substrates to get good results, but when I found some affordable Akadama I still bought it and I still plan to try it... I anticipate it will give me the results I am looking for and the little bit I have used it so far I am impressed with how loose and free draining the soil is, but I couldn't really say whether I liked it or not until I got some... So I guess what I am getting at is- have you yourself tried charcoal in your mix? Just curious.
 

Smoke

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Sure I have. One season I mixed it in with my regular soil. I seen no difference so left it out the next season and saw no difference.

You have to understand that I am not a big proponent of hype. I used humic acid for almost five years before I even spoke of it. I can honestly say that for the past 11 years now since using it it is the one thing that I saw the most dramatic improvement in my trees. I can honestly say that charcoal did nothing.

I say if you wish to use go ahead, what can it hurt right. If someone was on a budget and really had to scrimp to get by in this hobby I would tell them that charcoal is an additive that you absolutley do not need to be successful in bonsai.

One does not need humic acid either, one can be plenty successful without it. I saw improvement so I continue to use it. If charcoal does it for you then you will have found something that should be included with every repotting. Of course there are those that think Super Thrive is the be all end all of bonsai supplements also:eek:
 

Smoke

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One other thing....I was the president of an all Japanese Bonsai club for 7 years. Most of the older Japanese guys have died off and the club has floundered for the last two years to the point that I have decided to pull the plug. I have been in the club 15 years and have worked with many of the older Japanese guys that I needed a translator for. I have seen these people bring bonsai in for the club Sen Sai to work with. The original Sen Sai was Tosh Saburomaru. He was a giant on West Coast Bonsai, being one of the original three, John Naka, Tosh Saburomaru and Yuji Yoshimura. I worked with Tosh monthly for 7 years until he could no longer come to Fresno. At that time Katsumi Kinoshita became the clubs Sen Sai and I worked with him until he could no longer make the trip to Fresno.

My point for all this story was to say I saw lots and lots of Japanese bonsai over the years. Many of these people were gardeners, which they did for a living. They made good livings at that trade and saved their money for retirement by being very frugal. I mean that in the most sincere way possible. I know how they eat, I understand how they live. They do not go to the movies much, don't buy much fast food, and don't buy candy and cookies. If they have a hobby it is practiced at home and they do not spend much money to do it. I saw trees come in with everything imaginable on the top of trees. Rusty wire like in Bill's photos, nails pounded into the trunks of Sago plams when they were fashoinable as bonsai twenty years ago. Fishing weights tied on branches with trussing string because they can't afford wire. One guy used to come in with a rusty fishing tackle box with his rusty tools in it. It still smelled like fish. I told him he could buy a nice canvas bag at Harbor Freight for like 5 bucks with nice pockets to keep all your tools in. He chuckled and told me "why, this box is just getting broke in". Then I began to chuckle.

Many of these things are Generational, and have continued on thru the years because they have no reason to change. Need more iron in the soil just throw some old rusty wire or a handfull of nails on the top of the pot. Yes that gets the job done but have we not learned anything in the twentyfirst century? Could we mix up a batch of ironite fertlizer and keep the rusty coil of wire for the trash? Is this more Japanese hype we could do without?

I don't know, you be the judge.

l to r. John Tosh Yuji
 

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Smoke

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I am sure if you ask enough people a reasonable argument could be made for the lack of a significant difference in nutrient absorption, moisture retention and root growth between say turface and Akadama for example- I say this because I have seen this argument made on this very site numerous times- yet you still use Akadama because it works for you right? Is that just a case of you using it simply as a talking point about how you Do what the Japanese do?


Just curious.

I use akadama because of its moisture retentive properties. There is no substitute for that in any component I have ever used. The real kicker is the rate of transpiration of the particles. It is very slow which carries me thru the hot summer months. In thirty years I have tried everything. Even moisture retaining gel beads. (I was drunk when I did that). That is the reason I asked about your average temperature where you live.

If you would have said your average summer temp is around 75 to 80's occasionaly, I would have recommended you save your money because you will not see that great of an improvement in your overall judgement of the product to warrent its higher cost. In super stable climates like that of Oregon and the northen east coast, there are many products that will alow for superior drainage without the added cost of a clay component. Even where I live the temps have been in the low 80's and I am only watering every other day. I am only doing that becuae by mix is high in akadama content.
 

Skinnygoomba

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Thanks for the insights smoke.

I'm sure they have both extremes, in regard to thriftiness, just as we do. As much as I enjoy the romanticized version of bonsai (copper watering cans, fancy tools, ect) I realize it has little effect on the quality of the outcome in most circumstance.

Similar to other hobbies; for instance I asked my sushi chef what his preference in knives were and he looked at me like I was out of my mind. He had a quality one but something from the chef supply rather than a sword maker who now makes yanagibas.
 
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Anthony

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Al,

a million thanks for the last two posts. Wow, that was amazing!!!!

Temp today - 88 deg.F and low of 70 deg.F expected, will stay like this until next year around March, with lows of 70 -the occasional 68 deg.F lasting from 5.30 p.m until 8 to 10 a.m and humidity dropping back to 45 - 50 % around April/May. Presently 70 to 65 % humidty. Still raining nicely.
Thanks a million again.
Great day.
Anthony

For Al -

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ofwFr8o8p0Y
 
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Smoke

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Al,

a million thanks for the last two posts. Wow, that was amazing!!!!

Temp today - 88 deg.F and low of 70 deg.F expected, will stay like this until next year around March, with lows of 70 -the occasional 68 deg.F lasting from 5.30 p.m until 8 to 10 a.m and humidity dropping back to 45 - 50 % around April/May. Presently 70 to 65 % humidty. Still raining nicely.
Thanks a million again.
Great day.
Anthony

For Al -

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ofwFr8o8p0Y

Pretty timely also, thats been my ringtone for about three weeks on my Iphone. I finely ditched Gangnam style!
 

Smoke

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Thanks for the insights smoke.

I'm sure they have both extremes, in regard to thriftiness, just as we do. As much as I enjoy the romanticized version of bonsai (copper watering cans, fancy tools, ect) I realize it has little effect on the quality of the outcome in most circumstance.

Similar to other hobbies; for instance I asked my sushi chef what his preference in knives were and he looked at me like I was out of my mind. He had a quality one but something from the chef supply rather than a sword maker who now makes yanagibas.

Friend of mine had yanagibas....Penicillin mostly took care of it.
 

logan3

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Charcoal

Saw a picture on FB today of some bonsai in Japan with big chunks of charcoal sitting on the soil surface. I'd never seen that before.
 

Eric Group

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I use akadama because of its moisture retentive properties. There is no substitute for that in any component I have ever used. The real kicker is the rate of transpiration of the particles. It is very slow which carries me thru the hot summer months. In thirty years I have tried everything. Even moisture retaining gel beads. (I was drunk when I did that). That is the reason I asked about your average temperature where you live.

If you would have said your average summer temp is around 75 to 80's occasionaly, I would have recommended you save your money because you will not see that great of an improvement in your overall judgement of the product to warrent its higher cost. In super stable climates like that of Oregon and the northen east coast, there are many products that will alow for superior drainage without the added cost of a clay component. Even where I live the temps have been in the low 80's and I am only watering every other day. I am only doing that becuae by mix is high in akadama content.

Thanks for all the great info you have posted in this thread Smoke! I am looking into humic acid containing ferts now.. Do you have a favorite?

Did some reading up on it..
http://www.naturalenviro.com/Article.php?ArticleSKU=humic-acid-role
 
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