Peter Warren Japanese Black Pine

[fore]

Thanks Brian, you're right, they are not shading anything and they are still green and healthy. I'll leave them till late fall.

Regarding that graft, did you not think you'd get some back budding or did you just want an exact location for that graft? The branch doesn't look that old.

 

[Brian Van Fleet]

Regarding that graft, did you not think you'd get some back budding or did you just want an exact location for that graft? The branch doesn't look that old.

It has a couple small buds popping on that branch, but yes, I wanted them in that spot, and stronger than what are there. That branch is just over 1" in diameter, and probably 10 years old, not likely to pop back any more than it already has. You'll see soon when you get yours...it's very similar in development and size.

 

[fore]

"but yes, I wanted them in that spot, and stronger than what are there."
That makes sense, you want branching proportional to the trunk. And 1" is about 10yrs? I knew they were slow...but 1"? LOL

Oh boy Brian, am I'm pumped about getting it!! Funny, I was wondering about the size, because there was no scale. But you have a pic with scale and I was totally amazed and surprised about the size! It was much larger than I imagined...which is great!

My backyard is getting a bit more crowded with my recent additions. Huge Trident stump that is a long term project, and this new Huge JBP that I can make it show-able, maybe, considering my skills lol, in say 8-10yrs. Pretty cool. Someone said on another thread that spending time with the trees was therapy, a peaceful experience to appreciate nature at it's best. I totally agree.
But, I don't have a spot for this JBP coming

 

[Brian Van Fleet]

Here is some scale, yours will be very close to this size. The base is 7", trunk above is 4", and the total height is 33", but will finish out around 25".

To get 1" branch isn't bad in 10 years...could be less than 10, but I've had it 3 seasons now, and it was pretty stout in '09. The error was not developing buds on that branch close to the trunk while it was young. What I'm working with should have been nothing more than a sacrifice branch to remove when it's thickened up everything behind it...just leaving those buds that were developed into ramified branches...

 

[fore]

Great scale picture Brian, Thanks! How long do you think you'll leave that leader/sacrificial branch growing upward to create the apex's final taper? And just to learn, how many years old can a JBP branch be before not putting out new buds? And if you had your choice, would you have preferred to have a branch on the left in the middle of the second Coke can?

I can only hope that mine turns out as nice as this one, or the one in your blog! I'm going to do exactly what you did in styling it first roughly, then a second style a yr later and then repot the third year. Just hope the substrate it's in now will allow an aggressive feeding program.

 

[Brian Van Fleet]

Great scale picture Brian, Thanks! How long do you think you'll leave that leader/sacrificial branch growing upward to create the apex's final taper? And just to learn, how many years old can a JBP branch be before not putting out new buds? And if you had your choice, would you have preferred to have a branch on the left in the middle of the second Coke can?

I can only hope that mine turns out as nice as this one, or the one in your blog! I'm going to do exactly what you did in styling it first roughly, then a second style a yr later and then repot the third year. Just hope the substrate it's in now will allow an aggressive feeding program.

You're welcome.

I'll leave the sacrifice leader another couple years. I got a bud to pop from the trunk behind the sacrifice branch that I'll develop into the apex. I want to be sure it's good and strong before I remove the sacrifice leader.

As for old branches producing new buds...less about the age (though once it's barky, it's unlikely), and more about the idea that you can only expect it to happen once. When you prune a branch, it typically responds with one good push to produce new buds on the branch, or at it's collar. That response won't reliably happen twice. I have seen a branch pruned to a stub with no needles remaining, and it produced several whorls, but you don't want to bet the farm on it happening.

I wouldn't want a branch any lower on the left side, but it has several branches emerging from similar locations on the back of the trunk that will have to be dealt with.

On substrate...you should be fine, but if you need to, you can aerate the root ball with a long piece of rebar, just push it straight down to the bottom of the pot in several places, and fill it in with aggregate.

 

[fore]

Really? I didn't know you couldn't rely on back budding to happen more than once. Stange since on my Ponderosa Pine there's back buds everywhere and all I did was wire branches last Dec. No pruning. Perhaps I'm comparing apples to oranges?

And Thanks, I was just wondering about the branching and final style you had in mind. Not that I thought it needed a branch there, just curious.

Aerating with rebar and filling it in with Turface (or Pumice that I'm getting my hands on soon I hope) is a fantastic idea! Thanks!

 

[Brian Van Fleet]

Really? I didn't know you couldn't rely on back budding to happen more than once. Stange since on my Ponderosa Pine there's back buds everywhere and all I did was wire branches last Dec.

Yep...that's your once...

 

[fore]

Yep...that's your once...

LOL!!! God I hope you're wrong Brian, because they aren't close enough to the trunk yet!

I remember when I read Larry Jackel's book and he said something along the same line, you'll only get back budding once...but it was after his "Fall Ponderosa Pine Technique" where in late fall, he removes the top and bottom needles, and also cuts the terminal bud at a 45 degree cut producing back buds. (Yes I had to look in the book for the details lol)

 

[fore]

Brian, I've reread this thread and got me thinking,

"When you prune a branch, it typically responds with one good push to produce new buds on the branch, or at it's collar. That response won't reliably happen twice. I have seen a branch pruned to a stub with no needles remaining, and it produced several whorls, but you don't want to bet the farm on it happening."

When you do get a back bud, how many years do you let the entire branch grow, letting the new bud mature, before you cut back to that new bud?

 

[Brian Van Fleet]

Look at slides 83-85 in this article: http://www.nebaribonsai.com/Nebari_Bonsai_112109/Projects_files/Candle-Cutting 071011.pdf

Those slides show 2 1-year old advantageous buds (in '09) that were developed into branches for 2 years before the sacrifice leader was removed (in '11). You'll also see on slide 85, 2 new shoots that emerged on the outside of each branch, which are being developed to replace the extending growth. It's a never-ending process...always "chasing" back the growth toward the trunk, creating movement, taper and ramification in the process.

Just for fun, here is a current shot of that branch with this spring's growth emerging:

And the back side of the whole tree, from above:

 

[fore]

I went back and looked again and I see what you did. Looking at this yrs photo's, It's amazing those two new leaders developed such thick branching with new buds on them in only 4 yrs! At least I know now how developed the buds have to be before cutting off the sacrificial branch....guessing by the needles on them, I'd say about 2-3 yrs. That's such a great learning blog post Brian, I guess that's why I've mentioned it on several threads

Thanks for answering all my questions so thoroughly and thoughtful. And with the patience of Job! lol

 

[Brian Van Fleet]

Update...

 

[fore]

Very nice Brian! I really like what you've done so far! And I guess my only critique is the apex branch seems a bit straight coming from a trunk with so much movement. Is it your plans to get back budding and cut it back like you plan on the first r. branch to create taper?

 

[Brian Van Fleet]

Probably needs to be grafted. Here is a recent shot after 2nd flush resulting from candle pruning.

it was thinned out and unwired yesterday. More photos soon...it goes along well with Jeremy's recent thread.

 

[Adair M]

Brian,

You could put some curve in that apex branch with a piece of rebar, a block of wood, and a couple of guy wires.

But you already know that!

 

[bonsaibp]

Brian hats off to you for your fantastic pine work and willingness to share in great detail with others. Thanks.

 

[JudyB]

Brian hats off to you for your fantastic pine work and willingness to share in great detail with others. Thanks.

Agreed wholeheartedly!!!

 

[Brian Van Fleet]

Brian hats off to you for your fantastic pine work and willingness to share in great detail with others. Thanks.

Glad to see you posting as well...you have some excellent material!

 

[Brian Van Fleet]

Brian,

You could put some curve in that apex branch with a piece of rebar, a block of wood, and a couple of guy wires.

But you already know that!

Pretty sure I'm going to have to graft a couple shoots into that space and replace that section entirely. In addition to being straight and without taper, it ends in a big knuckle.