Put up or Shut up

[A Random User]

I don't want to kick anyone off. This site is about advancing the art of bonsai. It is not about egos - mine or anyone else's. It is not about being "right" it is about seeking understanding. It is not about being "best" it is about making friends. It is not about being "perfect" it is about improving.

I know that the majority of bonsai enthusiasts do not visit / use bonsai forums. Many who come to this site do so only as guests, or as anonymous members who only view and read, and who never post. Part of the reason they do this is because they don't want to be criticized - because they are self-conscious or because they just don't want to be bothered with the negativity.

I have thought about adding a forum that would be "post your trees - no comments allowed" but then I thought that is kinda like what the gallery is (though you can still comment on gallery pictures). And at the end of the day - forums are about the interaction. There is no easy solution. And I have given up trying to change people when I can barely change myself So I try to guide the behavior into better paths - without cutting it off entirely by banning people, deleting threads, etc.

Despite what everyone here thinks... I don't come here to be an a-hole...
I just get sick and tired of always getting shit from people...
There are folks here who are glad to see me return... they are interested in what I
Have to say... and I am interested in telling them... but when you have to be told your
A liar, an egotistical fame seeker, that you don't know what you are talking about...any time
I actually try and post a legitimate thread... sorry but you just say screw that !!!

I posted tons of trees in this thread, with many different bonsai processes that have
Been done to them, anyone here could if easily ignored the intro and talked about the trees,
And to the credit of some very awesome people, they did... but to the rest here we sit...
You can post a thousand posts about trees, and even though everyone says that is the
Reason for comming... they get no views... but a train wreck, well that is another story.
It is pure BS... folks come here for a lot of reasons... least of all to make friends!
Look how many showed up to comment in a negative way about this thread...
Is this how friends are made ?

 

[Bonsai Nut]

You can post a thousand posts about trees, and even though everyone says that is the
Reason for comming... they get no views... but a train wreck, well that is another story.

Yes but is that YOUR fault? Or THEIRS? If I start a thread saying "well you a-holes don't know anything so I don't know why I'm bothering posting this tree but here goes" how do you think people are going to respond?

There are tons of threads that I enjoy that I don't post anything on - because I have nothing to add.

Someone recently posted a quote that went something like "a positive story is repeated twice, but a negative story is repeated ten times." For whatever reason, people LOVE to argue. And if you START a thread with an argument, well, it will go downhill faster than up. It is human nature. The only surprising thing is that you act surprised that it does.

So if you are going to post a thread about a tree, post a thread about a tree. You are practicing something my son is very good at - plausible deniability. I think you see enemies where there are none, and take 10x the offense at comments that I would brush off without a second thought. And all these comments about being banned and just returning over and over... they are nothing but inflammatory - as is your seeking out other posters and spamming their threads. I don't dislike you - I don't even KNOW you - but I dislike this behavior.

 

[A Random User]

Listen... I will be more than happy to go back and remove every negative post I have posted on my thread, if everyone else is willing... I will not however change my original post. I shouldn't have too. I will also be more
Than willing to go and remove the negative posts that have been placed on Cypress and NY's threads, after them choosing to do so on mine. And we can all be friends again, and perhaps walk away form this learning some sort of lesson... don't think it will actually happen, or that anyone will actually learn anything !!!

But, in the bright side, I will not have all this useless crap talk that doesn't
Have anything to do with bonsai on my thread...

 

[coh]

But, in the bright side, I will not have all this useless crap talk that doesn't
Have anything to do with bonsai on my thread...

You will, if you keep starting threads the way you started this one. But I think you know that.

 

[Bonsai Nut]

Here's what I would recommend. On the left nav bar on the site is a link to "User CP". Click that and on the left nav bar in User CP you will see "Edit Ignore Lists". If people annoy you or try to bait you, add them to your ignore list. Let beautiful silence reign!! You can always remove them from your ignore list days, weeks, or months later. This way you will only see posts from people who are interested in having a serious discussion, and puts YOU in control of whose comments you want to read. It is much better than getting into a "tit for tat" argument about who can argue loudest - which on the Internet is un-winnable. If you think there are a handful of people who are actively following you around and hijacking your threads it will solve the problem instantly.

It also makes my job much easier - because then the negative comments are one-sided and someone trolling sticks out like a sore thumb.

 

[A Random User]

Yes but is that YOUR fault? Or THEIRS? If I start a thread saying "well you a-holes don't know anything so I don't know why I'm bothering posting this tree but here goes" how do you think people are going to respond?

There are tons of threads that I enjoy that I don't post anything on - because I have nothing to add.

Someone recently posted a quote that went something like "a positive story is repeated twice, but a negative story is repeated ten times." For whatever reason, people LOVE to argue. And if you START a thread with an argument, well, it will go downhill faster than up. It is human nature. The only surprising thing is that you act surprised that it does.

So if you are going to post a thread about a tree, post a thread about a tree. You are practicing something my son is very good at - plausible deniability. I think you see enemies were there are none, and take 10x the offense at comments that I would brush off without a second thought. And all these comments about being banned and just returning over and over... they are nothing but inflammatory - as is your seeking out other posters and spamming their threads. I don't dislike you - I don't even KNOW you - but I dislike this behavior.

Sorry, but you are not correct... I am not surprised when a negative post goes down hill.Quite, the contrary, but I also am not some fool who can't understand a simple reality that it makes no difference, as I have stated quite a few times here before... and for some reason we keep having to go around in circles repeating what has already been said.
There is no plausible denial... I am quite aware of what I am doing and take full responsibility. I am just being an ass to those who have been an ass to me. Wish it didn't have to be this way. But if those "enemies that aren't there", wouldn't come to post in a such a negative fashion on my thread then more than likely they would not of ended up with the favor being returned.

Just like if I had not been supposedly banned... I would be still using my name,
Stacy Allen Muse , as my user name. But, then again, I would not have had to if been banned
If the few rules that are in place had a actually been enforced. It's probably safe to
Say that in this case as well.

Seeing that you didn't ban me... can you please unblock my Stacy Allen Muse user name then,
So I can return to using it ? I promise I will try and be good !

 

[A Random User]

Here's what I would recommend. On the left nav bar on the site is a link to "User CP". Click that and on the left nav bar in User CP you will see "Edit Ignore Lists". If people annoy you or try to bait you, add them to your ignore list. Let beautiful silence reign!! You can always remove them from your ignore list days, weeks, or months later. This way you will only see posts from people who are interested in having a serious discussion, and puts YOU in control of whose comments you want to read. It is much better than getting into a "tit for tat" argument about who can argue loudest - which on the Internet is un-winnable. If you think there are a handful of people who are actively following you around and hijacking your threads it will solve the problem instantly.

It also makes my job much easier - because then the negative comments are one-sided and someone trolling sticks out like a sore thumb.

Umm... so how does a "edit/ignore" button stop them from posting on your
Thread ? See, you missed the point... I don't care what they say on other people's
Threads. I mean, in all actuality... I don't care what they say at all... I think this is
More the point... perhaps there should be a don't post crap on my thread button ?
It could be before the ignore button... in all actuality if you had it you might not need
The ignore button then... just a suggestion...

 

[october]

Another juniper that I thought I would post an update of, seeing
that it is starting to fill in nicely. This tree originated as a bottom
branch of a dying shrub from my yard. I literally broke the trunk in
two separate spots to create the drastic bends. It was then wired to
hold this position, and has been left to heal for the last 4 years...
I figured I would leave the wires on till the tree is ready to show.
View attachment 55940View attachment 55941View attachment 55942

This is my favorite tree in this thread. Of course, I am a juniper guy. Are you planning on letting the first foliage pad on the right lengthen a bit? Something like this virt. Sometimes just 1 inch of growth really completes a silhouette.

Rob

 

[Bonsai Nut]

Seeing that you didn't ban me... can you please unblock my Stacy Allen Muse user name then, So I can return to using it ? I promise I will try and be good !

I think you could use a happier avatar with it It is unblocked. Let me know if you are having troubles accessing it.

 

[A Random User]

Wow !!!
That was a friendly jester... Perhaps there is a little love still
Left in the world !!! Thanks !
Now, what about that don't post bad crap on my thread button ???

 

[Trent Bradbury]

I joined the forum 2 day's ago. I am having a hard time articulating how I feel. I do not want to tell you how to run a forum after only being here 2 day's. I thought about whether or not I should join based on the animosity I observed. I decided I would take a chance and join. After 2 day's how do I feel ? Honestly, I feel uncomfortable. There are a ton of good things here but there is something that is disconcerting and unsettling... tough to understand with the reverence and good karma Bonsai brings.

 

[Bonsai Nut]

Umm... so how does a "edit/ignore" button stop them from posting on your
Thread ? See, you missed the point... I don't care what they say on other people's
Threads.

They can post something on your thread. You hit ignore you will never see it. If it blatantly inflammatory it will stick out like a sore thumb and I can deal with it. If it is just a critical comment - like "I don't like the design of this tree because of xyz reason" - I don't WANT to edit it because it is someone's comment. If that person happens to be a beginner, so what? Just ignore it. That was my point about Harry's tree. Harry doesn't care what I think about his trees. Even if I walked up to him and said "Harry I don't like this tree" he would say "well I do" and that would be the end of it. That is what a public forum is. I could have made this a moderated forum or an invitation only forum - but it would not have stopped the arguments, it would have just been arguments at a different level. People will ALWAYS disagree. To some extent if you post here it is to get CRITICAL FEEDBACK because otherwise you are asking to only hear from people who agree with you. No one will ever look at your tree the exact same way you do. They are seeing a different tree - for good or bad.

So you need to ask - if I post this tree am I prepared to accept the fact that people might comment critically about it, and how will I respond?

Let me guarantee you, if you took your best tree, and placed it on display in the National Mall, and the President walked by, and he commented, you might not like what he had to say. You could get mad - or you could say "wow the President commented on my tree" The value of the comment is ALWAYS in the commenter. But it does you no good to tell someone "your comment sucks because you have no experience and if I did what you are suggesting I would kill my tree". That doesn't help you, help them, or help the art of bonsai in this country. You can ignore the advice, or if you are feeling lucky, you can try to explain why (in a non-defensive way) you don't agree with their advice.

This assumes you are dealing with strangers. Once people get to know you as a real person (and you get to know them) there is much less room for inflammatory misunderstanding because you respect them more. There is a tendency to disrespect strangers on the Internet

 

[A Random User]

This is my favorite tree in this thread. Of course, I am a juniper guy. Are you planning on letting the first foliage pad on the right lengthen a bit? Something like this virt. Sometimes just 1 inch of growth really completes a silhouette.

Rob

I do... in all actuality, what is happening in that area is that there is
A smaller, weaker branch growing in. So, unfortunately it is just going to
Take some time. But, yes you are spot on with the overall shape.
I do feel though that the size needs more compacting , and to be a tad
Bit smaller foliage wise for the size if the trunk. This will just come
With time, replacing old foliage for newer, that has grown further in.

 

[october]

I do... in all actuality, what is happening in that area is that there is
A smaller, weaker branch growing in. So, unfortunately it is just going to
Take some time. But, yes you are spot on with the overall shape.
I do feel though that the size needs more compacting , and to be a tad
Bit smaller foliage wise for the size if the trunk. This will just come
With time, replacing old foliage for newer, that has grown further in.

Trying to keep a proportionate silhouette on bonsai is an on going battle. Especially with junipers that do not have huge trunks. Junipers than have like 6-10 inch diameter trunks seem like they would allow more in the way of growth and can still be proportionate. However, trunks that are only 1-3 inches will always have issues. The proportions on your juniper are currently excellent. However, keeping it there will always be a problem. As you know, things aren't perfect and many times there is just nothing to cut back to. Also, you can't cut back too much or the branch dies. Sometimes people start with smaller silhouettes and then let the tree grow into it. However, it all ends up the same. In time, it still becomes a challenge. In any case, this tree is beautiful and should only become more so in time.

Rob

 

[A Random User]

They can post something on your thread. You hit ignore you will never see it. If it blatantly inflammatory it will stick out like a sore thumb and I can deal with it. If it is just a critical comment - like "I don't like the design of this tree because of xyz reason" - I don't WANT to edit it because it is someone's comment. If that person happens to be a beginner, so what? Just ignore it. That was my point about Harry's tree. Harry doesn't care what I think about his trees. Even if I walked up to him and said "Harry I don't like this tree" he would say "well I do" and that would be the end of it. That is what a public forum is. I could have made this a moderated forum or an invitation only forum - but I guarantee you it would not have stopped the arguments, it would have just been arguments at a different level. People will ALWAYS disagree. To some extent if you post here it is to get CRITICAL FEEDBACK because otherwise you are asking for people to kiss your rear end and tell you how great you are.

So you need to ask - if I post this tree am I prepared to accept the fact that people might comment critically about it, and how will I respond.

Let me guarantee you, if you took your best tree, and placed it on display in the National Mall, and the President walked by, and he commented, you might not like what he had to say. You could get mad - or you could say "wow the President commented on my tree" The value of the comment is ALWAYS in the commenter. But it does you no good to tell someone "your comment sucks because you have no experience and if I did what you are suggesting I would kill my tree". That doesn't help you, help them, or help the art of bonsai in this country. You can ignore the advice, or if you are feeling lucky, you can try to explain why (in a non-defensive way) you don't agree with their advice.

This assumes you are dealing with strangers. Once people get to know you as a real person (and you get to know them) there is much less room for inflammatory misunderstanding because you respect them more. There is a tendency to disrespect strangers on the Internet

You missed my point entirely... I don't care what anyone here says about my trees.
I don't have too... I mean, I am sure this is going to sound even more egotistical
Than I already supposedly sound according to some out there, but what am I going
To be taught by someone here that for the most part I can't, or already having figured
Out myself ? So why then would I be concerned? I mean, we can still talk bonsai,
And duscuss things can't we, without having to try and teach things to people ??? I mean,
Perhaps this is part of the problem ? I come here to talk and discuss
Bonsai. I didn't come to try and learn something... I do plenty of that day in and
Day out on my own.... so no I am not concerned about what others say about
My trees.

 

[coh]

You missed my point entirely... I don't care what anyone here says about my trees.
I don't have too... I mean, I am sure this is going to sound even more egotistical
Than I already supposedly sound according to some out there, but what am I going
To be taught by someone here that for the most part I can't, or already having figured
Out myself ? So why then would I be concerned? I mean, we can still talk bonsai,
And duscuss things can't we, without having to try and teach things to people ??? I mean,
Perhaps this is part of the problem ? I come here to talk and discuss
Bonsai. I didn't come to try and learn something... I do plenty of that day in and
Day out on my own.... so no I am not concerned about what others say about
My trees.

Your words say one thing, but your actions say the opposite.

Why don't you try an experiment. Start a new thread, post exactly the stuff you posted in the first 10 or so posts, but without the aggressive and inflammatory preamble. And see what happens. You might be pleasantly surprised, provided that is what you really want (bonsai discussion and not fighting).

 

[fore]

Simply "Wow"...sorry Trent. It's usually not this bad here. Overall, almost everyone here are nice and more than willing to share. Stick with us

 

[A Random User]

Your words say one thing, but your actions say the opposite.

Why don't you try an experiment. Start a new thread, post exactly the stuff you posted in the first 10 or so posts, but without the aggressive and inflammatory preamble. And see what happens. You might be pleasantly surprised, provided that is what you really want (bonsai discussion and not fighting).

Thanks for the advice... I had already planned on it
We just needed to get the formalities out of the way.
No need to post a sincere post only to go through all
This.
I also, plan on removing my posts on both Cypress and
NY's threads because despite what they may think of me,
I don't actually think that what they are doing, and them
Trying to learn is bad. On the contrary, we all gotta start
Somewhere, and some of us learn in different ways and
For alot, a forum like this is crucial to learning. Alot of folks
Don't have the opportunity that some do... they don't have
Wonderful clubs, and awesome individuals who cone to their
Town to study with. So, for them, forums like this might be
Crucial to their development of their art.

Perhaps though they will spent more time doing just this.
And will spend less time worrying about stuff that has nothing
To do with bonsai.

 

[A Random User]

Simply "Wow"...sorry Trent. It's usually not this bad here. Overall, almost everyone here are nice and more than willing to share. Stick with us

Sorry, but perhaps this side of B-Nut needs to stop
Being ignored, and instead dealt with... on any given week
There are probably at least 3 or 4 of these post going on
At a time. They were here before most of us came, and surely
Were here while I was away.
So, this is nothing new.

 

[coh]

Thanks for the advice... I had already planned on it
We just needed to get the formalities out of the way.
No need to post a sincere post only to go through all
This.

This is where I think you are wrong. If you had just posted all those trees without the preamble, I don't think this thread would ever have wound up like this. I mean, you were absent from this forum for what, a few weeks? A month? More? You could have just started fresh. Instead, everyone is all stirred up which means the potential for a new thread to turn ugly is higher. I hope that doesn't happen.

Chris