Talent v. Technique

[Anonymous User]

Talent is not always inherent, it can be learned. Talent is the manifestation of practise.

Al,

Can you please elaborate on this statement, as it goes against the logic of some of the best minds that ever existed. Maybe you can redefine the whole concept for me?


Let's look at the very definition of talent first...

The Encarta® World English Dictionary [North American Edition] defines talent as "natural ability: an unusual natural ability to do something well, especially in artistic areas that can be developed by training"

Please notice the word natural which is defined by the same source as "produced by nature: present in or produced by nature, not artificial or synthetic" and as "innate: inborn, rather than acquired" hence, in relation to talent, born with, not acquired.

Encarta goes on to list some synonyms...

talent, gift, aptitude, flair, bent, knack, genius
CORE MEANING: the natural ability to do something well

talent a natural ability to do something well that can be developed by training;

gift a natural ability, especially an artistic ability, or a social skill;

aptitude a natural tendency to do something well, especially one that can be further developed;

flair a natural ability to do something well, especially creative or artistic ability;

bent a strong natural inclination or liking for something;

Notice the word "natural" in every single example shown here?


Now let's look at the definition of skill...

The Encarta® World English Dictionary [North American Edition] defines skill as

1. ability to do something well: the ability to do something well, usually gained through training or experience

2. something requiring training to do well: something that requires training and experience to do well, e.g. an art or trade


As we can plainly see, skills can be learned, talent can not be. Talent is natural, inborn, and you either have it, or you don't.

I'll get into Plato (who shook up the ruling class by suggesting that talent is not genetic but people from all classes can born with it and should be sought out and trained as the new ruling class) and other great minds of the past that confirm that talent can not be learned, but is indeed a gift one is either born with or not in the upcoming article.

In closing, based on standard accepted definitions of the very word "talent" you are mistaken Al, talent can not be learned, it is not the manifestation of practice. That would be skill.


Will

 

[Anonymous User]

Vance with all due Respect it can. There are many on this forum that are Educated in the Medical Field. But as I told Will it is another story and I do not feel it needs to be told here.

That is too bad, offering up something as being a fact without supporting references, sources, or examples really doesn't hold much weight. Without such, we are back to that which has not been successfully challenged, talent can not be stolen.



Will

 

[Smoke]

Still, there are some people that will never possess that spark of creativity no matter how much they practice...

That is the kernel of the whole thing. A talented person is someone that can apply what is needed to do a certain task effeciently. Practise will enhance this ability to apply.

As a journeyman carpenter and someone that is equally at home building a house as building a large commercial building, I work with apprentices all the time. Currently my apprentice I am working with has been with me for three years. He is 26 years old and dedicated to his trade. He has worked less than some at the company I work for. In his three years he has surpassed many other workers that make much more money than he does. Most of the reason for this is that this apprentice is a mechanic. He can work with his hands. He is devoted to learning, he listens, he follows oreders, and he performes his tasks with accuracy. His younger brother has started with the company and I have worked with him for weeks at a time. I can tell within a few short weeks whether he will be as trainable as his brother. Unfortunately I do not think he will be. He does not apply himself the same way.

I do not consider his older brother a more talented carpenter. This may be just a stepping stone in a whole different career for all I know. He is talented though. His talent grows each day. I don't think his talent is carpentry, its just that he works well with his hands and so looks talented. To someone that does not know how to hold a hammer or sink a 16 penny nail with one stroke, I am sure he looks like a master.

Maybe talent can be summed up by "a person's ability to make it look easy".



Just because you can make a Mission for a school project from a box of macaroni and paperclips does not make you talented. But in your child's eyes you are the most talented person on Earth.

Cheers, Al

 

[Smoke]

I knew you couldn't ignore me for long.

I'm just tooo tempting.

Rave on oh talented one....

 

[Anonymous User]

I knew you couldn't ignore me for long.

I'm just tooo tempting.

Please see my post in the "ignore" thread, I'm sorry to say my clearing of my ignore list really had nothing to do with you. As to my post here, the same untruth would have been responded to no matter who posted it.

Rave on oh talented one....

One of the reasons I did add people to my ignore list was their penance for sarcastic insults or attacking the author when they were unable to intelligently debate the subject at hand. You posted an opinion, I responded by concentrating on the subject, offering references and sources to support my words. At no time was I rude or demeaning toward you, nor did I insult or attack you for posting what I believed to be an untrue premise. I also did not comment on your own personal talent or lack thereof.

The subject here is talent vs technique.

May I politely suggest that if you can not debate the subject or logically defend your claim that talent can be learned, then admit your error and leave the name calling and tongue wagging at the sandbox?


Will

 

[Smoke]

Will, if talent can't be learned than does that mean you are going to give up bonsai? Based on your portfoilo of work it is apparent that you have no talent.

Of course if you believe that practise can help with manifesting any particle of talent, then one would have to assume that I have shown that it is possible. Why would anyone continue on a road of failure. We all have to hold hope that somehow the latent talent we all have is awakened by some natural process and we can move to a higher plain.

I know the exact day when a paradigm shift happened in the way I do bonsai. It was like a dark veil was lifted and many things became almost effortless. The way I pruned trees. The way I pinched suddenly became second nature. It was almost scary. I can hardly wait for the next light to pop on.

I am sure that with patience and diligence this too will happen. I will agree that with some this happens much faster. That may be called inherent talent. Some of us are never able to turn on the talent portion of the brain, the creative side. I believe if someone that can use their hands efficiently they can become talented in bonsai.


Further, being talented in bonsai does not predispose one to creating art. There are many in California that studied with John Naka that are talented bonsai men, but are not creating art.
Ryan Neil current leading apprentice for Kimura and translator (how's that for learned talent) finished school in California. He studied horticulture at Cal Poly, San Luis Obispo. The nations leading school for horticulture. Before embrking on his tutilage with the "carveing one" he belonged to the Hanford Bonsai Society. I had the privledge of working side by side with Ryan and helping him with his small trees and answering questions. Unfortunately before Ryan left for Japan, he had no bonsai worthy enough to put in the Hanford Fair, the small venue for the clubs yearly exhibit.


Anyone wish to argue with me that Ryan will be talented when he comes home?

Edit: I posted this after your recent offering and your finger pointing, based on previous comments this ought to really get you going. It's all opinion Will. Mine against yours. So far mine carries a little more weight. Dictionaries are not going to solve this. My pointing to your lack of talent is not meant to incite but rather to illustrate my opinion of not giving up, but holding on to the premise of "getting it".

 

[Smoke]

Subjectivity..... Where have I heard that term before......

Your turn Atilla

 

[Anonymous User]

Will, if talent can't be learned than does that mean you are going to give up bonsai? Based on your portfoilo of work it is apparent that you have no talent.

Personal insult based on little if any shown experience. Typical, dig at the author when you can't debate the subject.

If you don't mind, I'll take the word of others, far more knowledgeable, on my talent or lack thereof. I have come to take your opinions at their full worth, as they are usually biased and based on little more than sour grapes, they have never affected my outlook in the slightest manner, but thanks for taking the time to voice yet another opinion.

Further, being talented in bonsai does not predispose one to creating art. There are many in California that studied with John Naka that are talented bonsai men, but are not creating art.

This is because talent is not learned. There are people who studies for 10 years or more, tutored under great masters, and still produce nothing artistic. One can learn technique and skills, one can master them and create respectable bonsai, but its talent that takes the technique, the skills and raises it above the common. With talent the bonsai becomes more than the sum of its parts, it becomes art.

Anyone wish to argue with me that Ryan will be talented when he comes home?

Ryan will only be talented when he comes home if he was talented when he left. He will certainly come home with master class skills.

So far mine carries a little more weight. Dictionaries are not going to solve this.

Al, your argument is opinion only and carries no weight what-so-ever. As I pointed out, greater minds than ours have already beat this horse, your opinion on talent differs from such minds as Plato, Socrates, Kant, even Tolstoy. Your use of the word talent goes against the very definition of the word, you might as well just rip that page out of the dictionary if you are going to makeup your own definitions and ascribe imaginary meanings to words to support your opinions.

The truth is the truth Al.

Dictionaries did in fact solve this, the topic is talent and, I'm sorry Al, the definition of talent is the base, the foundation for any and all thoughts on the subject. To argue otherwise is pointless and one who does so is delusional, as you can not simply change the meaning of a word only to support your "opinion."

Really Al, you can do better than this.



Will

 

[Anonymous User]

Will, I know that this is your position, but my question is, what are the ultimate ramifications of such a belief? Who knows whether someone has talent or not? And how do they find out? How is talent revealed?

Good questions Chris and some which I am exploring at the moment. I hope you don't mind if I take a rain check on these, it's late and I am trying to finish a little research on this very subject.

It is interesting that a discussion somewhat like this one was had in Greece many years ago, many of the same arguments were put forth. Back then the ultimate ramification was truth, I'd like to think that still remains the same today.



Will

 

[Graydon]

Graydon, thank you for your input on this one. I think you are on the right path...but I still want to explore the ramifications further.

You are welcome Chris. Feel free to explore away. In the end I believe its' all opinion my friend. I can see many opinions laid out in this thread and I can't see any of them changing. And so the circle continues.

 

[agraham]

I can remember asking Walter Pall how he chose particular pots for particular trees.His response was that he had performed that task so many times that the choice came naturally(my paraphrase).

Talent?..or,

Learned skill?


andy

 

[Anonymous User]

With all due respect, Will, this isn't a college debate. Being able to quote "evidence cards" doesn't necessarily make an argument. I look forward to your article and seeing if you draw conclusions or not.

You're right Chris, this is not a college debate, here it seems we can ignore the definitions of the very words we seek to understand and even make up our own to fit our opinions.

I hear-by declare that talent, from this day forward, means Blueberry Pudding! And you can only get it if somebody throws it at you on a leap year.

Pffftttt. Silly isn't it?

All debates, college level or not, should have facts as a foundation. Opinions should be supported with evidence and those that are not carry little weight.

Fact: The definition of talent confirms that it is not learned, but indeed a gift some are born with.

Fact: Some of the greatest philosophers of the past confirmed that talent is something one is born with.

Fact: The definition of skill shows that it can be learned.

Conclusion, most confuse talent with skill.

I'd be interested in seeing anything that refutes the above facts, until then everything else is just opinion, and like it or not, opinions can be wrong.



Will

 

[Chris Johnston]

There's no need to get contentious. My point was that quoting others all day long is fine, but let's see what original thought it leads you to. I have often wondered where this line of reasoning was going to take you.

For the record, I do not necessarily dispute the definitions offered, I just have questions about emphasis.

 

[Rick Moquin]

For the record, I do not necessarily dispute the definitions offered, I just have questions about emphasis.

Chris,

You haven't figured it out yet??

 

[bwaynef]

...
Fact: The definition of talent confirms that it is not learned, but indeed a gift some are born with.
Fact: Some of the greatest philosophers of the past confirmed that talent is something one is born with.
Fact: The definition of skill shows that it can be learned.

Conclusion, most confuse talent with skill.
...
Will

Since you brought it up...

Facts 1 & 3 deal with the origin of talent and skill respectively. Fact 2 states what philosophers believed about the subject of Fact 1 (talent).

The conclusion, as stated, can not logically be drawn from any of the (let's call them) premises that were given. Thats not to say I agree or disagree with any of your premises or even the conclusion, but lumping them together as though the one follows (logically) from the three is ...illogical.

 

[ovation22]

Will,

I'm going to have to agree with Wayne on this one. As another one that deals with logic problems on a daily basis I see the flaws here. If you're going to get heated and spew forth "facts" let's be sure to stay factual and follow them to "logical" conclusions.

Or, don't get heated and continue the lively discussion.


Take care.

 

[Chris Johnston]

Chris,

You haven't figured it out yet??

I don't make assumptions about what someone is saying when it is as important and foundational as the nature of art, or talent, or whatever. Far too much is said about these things by talking around them because when the language of the speaker gets specific, the full ramifications of what they are promulgating becomes readily apparent.

 

[ovation22]

Chris,

I enjoyed the latest entry on your blog. I still haven't had a chance to develop my own thoughts on this subject. I'm sure my answer would be tainted having read all of the posts so far.

I'm not sure how one would measure talent or test for the existence of talent. Surely everyone has this magical source for talent. Some have a grain of sand while others have a boat load. Or, do we all have the same amount of talent locked away? I'll leave this stream of consciousness entry for later digestion.

And Chris, I think you have talent.


Take care.

 

[Chris Johnston]

You are welcome Chris. Feel free to explore away. In the end I believe its' all opinion my friend. I can see many opinions laid out in this thread and I can't see any of them changing. And so the circle continues.

Graydon, I understand your feelings about this, but it really isn't all opinion. Whether or not a tree speaks to you personally is opinion. This deals with the very foundations of artistic philosophy, which has far more personal effect than most people realize, at least for those who aspire to produce bonsai or other art at the highest level. That's why it is important to nail down exactly what someone is saying.

 

[Chris Johnston]

Chris,

I enjoyed the latest entry on your blog. I still haven't had a chance to develop my own thoughts on this subject. I'm sure my answer would be tainted having read all of the posts so far.

I'm not sure how one would measure talent or test for the existence of talent. Surely everyone has this magical source for talent. Some have a grain of sand while others have a boat load. Or, do we all have the same amount of talent locked away? I'll leave this stream of consciousness entry for later digestion.

And Chris, I think you have talent.


Take care.

Well, thanks, John, but dammit, it's not about whether or not I have talent, or Will has talent, or Al has talent. It's about the nature of that and what it means.

Personally, the answer I received from Boon on that question was not the answer I thought I might get or maybe even wanted, but it was thoughtful and informative. I am still digesting it.