Talent v. Technique

[Chris Johnston]

Creating bonsai, or creating art, is an infinitely complex activity. We need many different "talents" to do the whole thing from start to finish.

First, we need to fall in love with bonsai. This is the first requirement. Some people, like me, are naturally attracted to bonsai. I didn't want to fall in love with it, it just happened. So, I must assume that I was born with it. Otherwise, how could I explain that other people could't care less, no matter how many hours I spent with them talking about the extraordinary beauty in bonsai. They just don't "have it" in them. Call it "the talent to recognize the uniquiness of bonsai". And, all of us who are passionately involved with bonsai (see the members of this forum), were born with this talent. Otherwise, we wouldn't spend enless hours talking about it.

I think I would have to disagree with your use of "talent" in this way regardless of the quotation marks. Becoming passionate about something is not a talent by any stretch of definitions. I can easily explain how others are not passionately in love with bonsai. They are simply passionately in love with something else, whether it be music, work, family, or even themselves! Don't confuse talent with interest. Nothing could confuse the issue more.

 

[Chris Johnston]

Second, we need to be naturally attracted, and feel at home, in the natural world. This is the second talent we need to have. I see kids that love to be outdoors, and interacting with all living things, from the beginning. They don't need to make an effort. Others are just repulsed by it: they are afraid of everything, don't like to get dirty, and get injured all the time. So, I guess this is another "talent" we need to be born with. If you are not naturally attracted to the outdoors, you will never be good at bonsai.

Once again I don't see this in any way an aspect of "talent." It is something that can be learned. I have been a bookworm all my life. Pale and pasty, that was me. I was a far better athlete at 40 than I was as a teenager. We learn these things, and interests change over time.

 

[Attila Soos]

The thing about definitions, though, is that they need to be agreed upon for a common debate. If your definition of talent is diametrically opposed to mine, we may think we disagree but be saying exactly the same thing, or vice versa!

Definitely agree. To be able to play the game, first we need to agree on the rules.

 

[Chris Johnston]

Third, we need to have a good "eye" for recognizing certain visual patterns. In other words, you see something, and you recognize a certain pattern. This helps us with the design aspect of bonsai.

Fourth, we need the "talent" to reproduce a certain pattern that we visually recognize. That's because it is not enough to "see" something, if you cannot reproduce it later at home. I wold call it visual memory.

Fifth, we need to have a vivid imagination....another talent. This helps us to make up original design patterns.

Sixth, we need to be "good with working with our hands"...an important talent. Otherwise, we won't be able to execute whatever is in our heads.

Seventh, we need to have a good memory. It helps when we remember certain things that we have seen in nature, or learned from somebody.

Attila, once again, all things that are developed with interest, training, and discipline. Granted, for some, some of these come more easily than others.

 

[Chris Johnston]

Eight...attention to details.

Ninth...we need to be open to new ideas: it is part of being a good artist.

Tenth.. we need the ability to express our feelings and ideas. This is a talent every artist nees, since works of art are a form of communication.

Eleventh.. we need a good sense of colors. Recognizing and matching colors can greatly enhance your bonsai creations.

Twelveth..a green thumb. Some of us can't even keep a cactus alive. Others make working with a manzanita look easy.

I listed twelve different types of "talent" that we need. The truth is that every one of us was born with these talents, but at various degrees. Each of these are located at different parts of our brain.

What if you were born less strong in the "imagination" sector. Well, you can compensate with your visual memory: you cannot make up a new design, but you can look at real trees in nature, and imitate those.
What if you have a good imagination, but not very good at "working with your hands". In this case, you will have to work a lot harder to learn various bonsai techniques, than someone who is a "natural", but eventually you can catch up with him if, and even surpass him, due to your great imagination.
What if you are very talented with working your hands, but can't seem to remember the shapes and designs seen in nature (your visual memory is not the best)? Use your imagination and create imaginary designs. They may be even better than the real ones.

You, see, one set of talent can compensate for the lack of others. We all have talent in some areas. What we need, is to recognize what we have, and use it to make up for what we don't. Learning and practicing can discover the potential within us, and eventually lead to success.

Al said that at certain time of our lives, "a light bulb comes on", and we elevate ourselves to a new level. This is when we discover the hidden potential in us, and start putting it to use. This can happen at any age. So, I believe that Al is right in that learning and practicing will take us to a new level because it frees up the talent that we have deep inside.

There is no such thing as the "talent gene" or "bonsai gene". That's because talent is made up of many different components. Nobody scores perfect in all the components, but we have a unique combination. And I don't believe that there are too many people who have no talent in any of the areas above. Being talented in nothing must be pretty rare.

Do I ask myself the question: am I talented? I don't need to. That's because deep inside I know I can do it. I can't expain why and how, but there is that unwaivering certainty, and that's what keeps me going every day. That's what keeps all of us doing bonsai. Many of us eventually will solve this puzzle. Some of us just won't have enough time.
And that's all right. That's why this is such an exciting journey.

Edit: and some of us will have an easier time figuring it all out, than others. Someone who works under a great master and teacher will obviously get there much faster then others, with less than ideal circumstances.

The rest of the items you mentioned here are all disciplines. Anyone can learn these things (except perhaps the colorblind where it comes to color). If they are talent, then by inductive reasoning it is reasonable to say that talent can be learned.

Could it be that there is no such thing as a numenous concept called "talent?"

 

[Attila Soos]

Becoming passionate about something is not a talent by any stretch of definitions. I can easily explain how others are not passionately in love with bonsai. They are simply passionately in love with something else, whether it be music, work, family, or even themselves! Don't confuse talent with interest. Nothing could confuse the issue more.

The talent is not to become passionate, or to love something. The talent is to recognize bonsai as the reflection of something truly unique. The love and passion is just the result of that.
So, I agree with you that interest is is not talent. The talent lies in the "seing" and "recognizing".
People lacking this talent see nothing but a little scrawny tree in a pot. But to you, this little tree creates a vision.

 

[No it's not...]

Could it be that there is no such thing as a numenous concept called "talent?"

The concept can be real, but the explanations regarding the origin of that characteristic differs.

 

[Attila Soos]

Once again I don't see this in any way an aspect of "talent." It is something that can be learned. I have been a bookworm all my life. Pale and pasty, that was me. I was a far better athlete at 40 than I was as a teenager. We learn these things, and interests change over time.

I have two kids, close in age. The boy feels at home outdoors. Like the fish in a pond.
The girl is just the opposite.

Both have the same upbringing, the same environment, same learning. It is their pre-disposition that is different. Obviously, they were born with that. This is the genetic, or natural component that I am talking about.

Later, this can change, the girl can learn...

 

[Chris Johnston]

Chris said:
"Where does a savant like Mozart fit into your belief? I think this may be an opposite extreme from the view that talent is everything and all technique and training is a waste of time."

Well, if savant is defined as a certain ability gained from autism (from the lack of a corpus callosum) I have nothing to add to the existing medical explanation. If you mean a remarkable ability in general, there is nothing that proves that such an understanding of music can not be taught. Allow me to cut and paste myself, "I my humble opinion producing great art doesn't require great skills, rather a certain way to see things and there are no proof that this certain way can't be aquired at a very young age."

Extreme as it might be, the theory of social constructivism is a widespread and accepted theory taught (or is it a talent??) at universitys all over the world. Just the same as the theory of medicine, sociology, economy and what not, and about as "true".

One rarely hears of extraordinary abilitys when it comes to skills that aren't highly thought of. Every one seems to be under the impression that "art" is something to strive for, something that is just a little bit better than everything else. How many of you (and me sometimes) wish they would excel in sports or something creative like singing, painting or writing? How many of you wish to excel in welding, masonry or something like that? My guess is far from the majority.

From my point of view there are things that could explain excellent results far better than "talent", such as to "think outside the box", intention, expressing something personal, trying to be unique, not following set rules or formulas etc.

Just a thought: Would successfully avoiding any kind of recognition throughout a lifetime be a "talent"? In other words, can you suck so hard it's a talent?

Sorry, Emil, Savant was probably too strong a word. I'm not sure how the creative genius of Mozart could be learned. Of course technical proficiency can, and perhaps that can unleash the talent within, but Mozart's musical ability became evident at three years old! His first compositions came when he was only five!

Hmmm, but his father was a composer, and began training him intensively at age 3...what could that mean? Food for thought, no doubt!

 

[Chris Johnston]

'nother thing while I'm at it. Doesn't it feel better to say that "I can't do what he/she does because it's not in my genes, so I'm biologically unable to achieve awesomeness" than to say "I can't do what he/she does because I don't have time, the ambition, the financial means, the intent, the skills, the master to teach me, the drive etc."? As soon as you use the "biology card", you swear yourself free of any potential personal attacks. It also becomes a question of choice. "I choose not to make the best of my situation". Think about javelin (the sport), imagine the waste of resources if you were super strong, tall and with excellent motoric skills and technique and was watching tv all day. People would constantly question your lifestyle. I'm short, weak decent motoric skills but utterly lazy. At least no one questions why I don't throw sticks a all day.

LOL Emil, you win Post of the Day!!! Of course the "talent card" may be a copout or an excuse.

Personally, I would give anything to play the piano fluently and easily. Well, anything but years of exhaustive practice...

 

[Attila Soos]

. Granted, for some, some of these come more easily than others.

Exactly.
Some learn faster than others. You can call those who learn faster, being born with more talent. But it doesn't mean that the slow learners cannot eventually learn.

So, we don't disagree on this one either.

 

[Attila Soos]

The rest of the items you mentioned here are all disciplines. Anyone can learn these things (except perhaps the colorblind where it comes to color). If they are talent, then by inductive reasoning it is reasonable to say that talent can be learned.

Could it be that there is no such thing as a numenous concept called "talent?"

I agree with you. But with the condition that to some people these things come easier than to others. These people have the genetic advantage. But the advantage CAN be overcome, in my opinion.

 

[No it's not...]

Sorry, Emil, Savant was probably too strong a word. I'm not sure how the creative genius of Mozart could be learned. Of course technical proficiency can, and perhaps that can unleash the talent within, but Mozart's musical ability became evident at three years old! His first compositions came when he was only five!

Hmmm, but his father was a composer, and began training him intensively at age 3...what could that mean? Food for thought, no doubt!

I assume that there wasn't much music around, and that there weren't that many genres. And with a composer as a father, I assume he heard a lot of music (for that time). I don't know squat about Mozart but let's make a number of assumptions:

Considering the context, he was going to make a classical piece (extremely "western"). He wrote it using notes (very "western") and got good feedback from a "western" audience. The music can be considered to be "academic", wich probably was considered refined and very "upper-class". All of these factors are definetly cultural and contextual, hence learned. Could he have written an arabic composition? Maybe, maybe not.

Imagine he was humming something (kids can hum, right?), his father liked most parts but maybe not all of it so he said "can you hum that in another way?" or "do you like it if I hum like this?". If Mozart said yes, he wrote it down, if not he hummed a different way or asked Mozart. That COULD be the way it was written (and yes, this might be a silly suggestion and I don't mean to piss on Mozarts parade but hey...)

Let's just say that I doubt that Mozart was in his room before bedtime, writing the notes down, "hearing" all the instruments and composing that in a harmonius way and suddenly runs to his dad going "hey, geezer! Look what I have made!!"...

 

[Vance Wood]

So--Let's cut to the chase; some of you are saying that there is no such thing as talent, just hard work and cultural influences?

 

[irene_b]

Makes one wonder.
Always keep your words soft and sweet, just in case you have to eat them.
Mom

 

[Vance Wood]

There is no doubt in my mind that there is such a thing as talent; to assign the work of Mozart or Beethoven to the realm of being simply the results of hard work is ignorant. You can site hard work but true talent drives a person to hard work, it tends to be a compulsion for those who have it in the extreme. Just to clear things up, Mozart was not a savant. As to the argument of being born into a musical family; there is no guarantee that the progeny will be musically gifted.

 

[Attila Soos]

I've been pondering this for a while. The question has come to mind, based on other discussions, whether talent is the determining factor on whether art is art or bonsai is art, or whether other factors must be incorporated.

I wouldn't deny the existence of talent. If it didn't exist, we wouldn't be talking about it.

The question was whether talent is the determining factor in creating bonsai art.

I say that it is NOT, since it takes much more than a born ability to create bonsai. The talent exists in most of us, but it is up to us to develop into practical ability to use it. Since each person is different, they have to find their own way of discovering and developing it. It is called learning and practicing.

I don't believe in just sitting back and saying "I don't have talent, so I will just sit back and do nothing about it". That's a lame excuse. I believe in "if there is a will, there is a way". I believe that the mind has much more untapped power then what most people believe.

There is proof that even the aging process (which is believed to be genetically programmed) can be reversed to a certain extent, using your mind's power. There is also proof that even born abilities such as hearing, smelling, vision, can be improved, using the mind's power. What we were born with, is just a small part of what we are capable of, if we have the will and desire.

 

[Attila Soos]

Here is a question: who was more talented, Mozart or Van Gogh.

Mozart's talent was visible by the age of 4.
Van Gogh's talent was only visible after he was dead. Up to that point, people believed that he had no talent, but rather crazy.

Who had more talent?

 

[BonsaiWes]

I don't think u can compare the 2, one painted the other did music. Lets make it easy, who has more talent..Bruce Lee or Jet Li.. David Lee Roth or Sammy Hagar.. Walter or Kimaru?

 

[Attila Soos]

My point, using Mozart and Van Gogh was, that talent has it's intricate and unexpected ways of surfacing. I is part of life's other mysteries. The human brain is largely a mystery, we are not even close to saying that we know it all. We can't even figure out a gnat's brain, never mind the human's.