Ugly Ducklings - Suggestions, advice please

[ConorDash]

Hello,

So these are 3 trees (1 is not an elm but 2 are so went in the Elm section, sue me!), that are my more experiment, worthless (apart from sentimental) and have no natural positives.
So take off your master bonsai cap, with your taper and nebari talk and think more for fun and see what happens .

First 2 trees are my original mallsai, Chinese Elm, first tree I ever got. Air layered in 2016, now 2 trees that are growing quite happily.

(Current and only plan is grow in to new leader on the left of the pic)

Top half of that original tree:

Absolutely no idea what to do with this thing, honestly.

And finally, my pyracantha. Air layered from big parent tree in 2016, been in the pot ever since. It is a strong grower, in great health (it looks) and plenty of roots as far as I can see. Lots of leaves, lots of energy

Completly straight, taperless trunk, and only branch nearby is off at 90 degree angle and straight as a ruler!
What I want, is to chop this RIGHT DOWN to nothing and just do everything from start. Build taper in its base by whatever means, put some taper on the top of the trunk with a new leader, just make it a tiny little tree.
Thought about using some of the new shoots that will grow this spring as thread grafts...

Any ways, thoughts? Ill take any advice! Bring it on.

 

[ConorDash]

No ideas guys?
Not even you @sorce ? You have your wacky side as well as your knowledgeable and sensible one

 

[BrianBay9]

For the pyracantha, cut it down to the first branch. That should stimulate new shoots to use to rebuild. Of course you could take as many air layers or cuttings as you want above that. You could have pyracanthas from here to Sunday.

 

[Paulpash]

In those small pots a tree with little potential will stay that way for a long time. No space in the ground for a few years?

 

[BrianBay9]

Sorry the best I can say about your elm is that it's an elm. The base has big challenges. The top needs to start from scratch. And the trunk in between isn't impressive enough to make me want to take the time with it. If it were mine I would put it in a club raffle, or stick it in the ground and forget about it for a few years. Don't want to be mean, but you might be better starting with some new material.

 

[twisted trees]

Hello,

So these are 3 trees (1 is not an elm but 2 are so went in the Elm section, sue me!), that are my more experiment, worthless (apart from sentimental) and have no natural positives.
So take off your master bonsai cap, with your taper and nebari talk and think more for fun and see what happens .

First 2 trees are my original mallsai, Chinese Elm, first tree I ever got. Air layered in 2016, now 2 trees that are growing quite happily.

(Current and only plan is grow in to new leader on the left of the pic)

Top half of that original tree:

Absolutely no idea what to do with this thing, honestly.

And finally, my pyracantha. Air layered from big parent tree in 2016, been in the pot ever since. It is a strong grower, in great health (it looks) and plenty of roots as far as I can see. Lots of leaves, lots of energy

Completly straight, taperless trunk, and only branch nearby is off at 90 degree angle and straight as a ruler!
What I want, is to chop this RIGHT DOWN to nothing and just do everything from start. Build taper in its base by whatever means, put some taper on the top of the trunk with a new leader, just make it a tiny little tree.
Thought about using some of the new shoots that will grow this spring as thread grafts...

Any ways, thoughts? Ill take any advice! Bring it on.

Only the usual basic design choices you have to make. Find the good aspect of the roots. From there, pick the best trunk line with movement and taper which should include the best branch placement. Cut everything else off.

 

[twisted trees]

Sorry the best I can say about your elm is that it's an elm. The base has big challenges. The top needs to start from scratch. And the trunk in between isn't impressive enough to make me want to take the time with it. If it were mine I would put it in a club raffle, or stick it in the ground and forget about it for a few years. Don't want to be mean, but you might be better starting with some new material.

Dude, it was his first tree. There's sentimental value there I would think.

 

[JoeH]

For the pyrocantha for sure air layer off all the upper branches then chop it down to that first small shoot. Maybe ground layer it later to get a better trunk base down the road?

 

[TomB]

For the pyrocantha for sure air layer off all the upper branches

No offense, but why bother? Just to get a few more sticks? Save a year, make the cut now.

 

[BrianBay9]

Dude, it was his first tree. There's sentimental value there I would think.

Sorry, I don't intend to sound mean. The second elm has more going for it than the first and could qualify for the sentimental keeper. I assume the OP recognized that since he air layered it off, and calls what remains an ugly duckling. I just don't see an obvious way to improve that first elm, and would still suggest growing it out and see what results in a few years.

 

[sorce]

I argreeish!

Have a few kinds of at em and see what happens!

I'm proud as hell you successfully layered that elm. Boom. Done with rookie hands!

Same rookie learns more when they mindfully continue the project.
Or mindfully scrap it.

You mindfully learned how to airlayer.

What is the next thing you may learn?

Sorce

 

[JoeH]

No offense, but why bother? Just to get a few more sticks? Save a year, make the cut now.

I try not to be wasteful, I see use in the top pieces, too.

 

[M. Frary]

I'd grow them out in the ground somewhere if I could Conor.
They're elms. People who are saying toss or get rid of them just don't know elms. A few years in the ground or large nursery buckets will do wonders for them.
Keep them.

 

[ConorDash]

Hi guys,

Thanks for the replies. So, yes these trees have very limited potential, if any. That I should the point of what I’m trying to do here . See what can be done with such limited things, fail or succeed, you still learn. Rather learn on these than something that cost me real money.
I’ll try and encompass everyone’s messages.

@BrianBay9 Totally not offended, I asked for these replies .
@TomB @Marie1uk @twisted trees @JoeH
I will definitely keep all trees cos I can do anything with them and experiment. I think I should plant the both elms to be honest, as they both need significant growth and Marie is right, small pots, will take forever.
I need to somehow direct and cut back the growth of the second tree though, it splits horizontally in to 2 big branches so unlike the first, I can’t really go in to a leader... not sure how I will tackle that. That’s a big question. The first tree, I can direct in to that new leader.
And yes that has sentimental value, don’t we all want our first ever tree to last forever? Even though for most of us it was the cheapest, biggest S bend tree in the world . Both elms need repotting next year so I think I’ll just prune this summer to something, they can recover for rest of growing season, winter to rest, put in the ground next year. Job done.
@M. Frary agreed. I’m far from an expert but elms are what I have learnt on and from mostly, bulletproof proof and amazing growers. I’ve seen online, people do amazing things to famous S bend elms.

Pyracantha, @TomB @JoeH , honestly this tree is completely 90degree, ruler straight branches. No use air layering at all. I’ve got 2 mature, large pyracantha growing in my garden. If I want more air layers, I can get them . But I like your thinking Joe, most of the time I’d be with you there!

My question for you guys.. cutting it down drastically.. how drastically do you think I can get away with? Looking at the last pic in my first post. You can see tiny bit of green at soil level, then up, before the first big branch is a bit of growth (last years old green leaves + fresh new leaves growing right now). Do you think I could chop all way down to that growth just below first branch? Literally chopped down to 3-4”. It would have 2 parts of green active growth. Been in the pot for about 2 years. Loads of green on the tree so I think it’s got loads of energy stored. What do you think?

@sorce thanks as always . I remember my post from 2 years ago and people recommending air layering, pretty sure you was one of them. This was my first big serious experience, obviously very happy it ended well! Air layered the pyracantha too at that time, in case one failed, I wouldn’t feel so bad lol.

 

[ConorDash]

For reference.

.

Difference between blue 2 and green 3 is keeping whole branch on blue, or chop top and branch on 3.

Inspiration for Chinese elm mallsai, making something out of it:
https://bonsaipenjing.wordpress.com/2014/01/13/17/

Harry Harrington’s bottom half Chinese elm:

 

[Cadillactaste]

Unless you work a section of that pyracantha...from the top canopy...wire some movement into flexible branch material...and work on developing a tree with what you have. (Not the current trunk at all) With waist below at some point. Planting the lower section in the landscape...with knowledge you created it. And it's still going.

 

[JoeH]

For reference.

.View attachment 185115

Difference between blue 2 and green 3 is keeping whole branch on blue, or chop top and branch on 3.

Inspiration for Chinese elm mallsai, making something out of it:
https://bonsaipenjing.wordpress.com/2014/01/13/17/

Harry Harrington’s bottom half Chinese elm:

View attachment 185117

chop at the red if you don't want to airlayer off the rest first

 

[ConorDash]

Unless you work a section of that pyracantha...from the top canopy...wire some movement into flexible branch material...and work on developing a tree with what you have. (Not the current trunk at all) With waist below at some point. Planting the lower section in the landscape...with knowledge you created it. And it's still going.

I’m sorry, I don’t really understand that :/. Currently it’s a big stick, straight, I want quite a small tree out of it so I am happy to chop down low, get good growth going and build from there.
I could build on branches and nebari by grading from the long growth it’ll shoot out.
Just thinking along the lines of, things have gotta start from the trunk and be worked on. Usually start with nebari but this doesn’t have any lol

chop at the red if you don't want to airlayer off the rest first

Yes, that’s what I was thinking. Just debating now.. if I chop, it may lose its vigor and might take along time to push strong growth. Am I wasting branch opportunities for grafting, by removing it all.. I plan on using quite a few branches for grafting, because this tree has such little potential. Gotta create it!

 

[Cadillactaste]

You could easily do the chop for a more substantial tree. I was thinking making a thicker branch the new trunk and finding a leader with much more movement.

I had thought of the chop...but you have so much on top...I ponder what you have in the canopy you could wire. So not to waiste it...then chop. But air layer if there is anything you can wire movement into...and create a tree. Don't look at the current trunk in the top...but create a tree from the branches coming off of it.

 

[ConorDash]

You could easily do the chop for a more substantial tree. I was thinking making a thicker branch the new trunk and finding a leader with much more movement.

I had thought of the chop...but you have so much on top...I ponder what you have in the canopy you could wire. So not to waiste it...then chop. But air layer if there is anything you can wire movement into...and create a tree. Don't look at the current trunk in the top...but create a tree from the branches coming off of it.

Ah yes, I am understanding...
That is interesting... The only problem with it, is that the pyrancatha is terrible for putting on girth. So whereas I could put on some movement to a branch, take a year to harden off and set, maybe start air layer when its ready, remove air layer 3 months later.. that could possibly give me a trunk with some movement. But that trunk would be a lot thinner than what I have now + in that time, i could chop this and wire new leader and let it grow.
Both ways dont sound bad aye?

Along the same lines, I think I might start another air layer on the pyracantha parent tree, now, as soon as I possibly can. See if I find something which even 5-10inchs of movement and thickness.