Talent v. Technique

[Anonymous User]

Being one thesis out of many submitted by a student at a business college and one which focuses on finding employees that are capable of performing well on the job, I am extremely interested in hearing how you determined that this was related at all to the subject at hand.

It should also be noted that this paper starts off by defining "talent" as a "capable employee", in example, have you hired any talent today? It has nothing what-so-ever to do with defining or exploring artistic talent as being discussed here.

I would also be interested on how you determined its credibility.



Will

 

[No it's not...]

Being one thesis out of many submitted by a student at a business college and one which focuses on finding employees that are capable of performing well on the job, I am extremely interested in hearing how you determined that this was related at all to the subject at hand.

Will, you have to read more than the abstract. Page 19. A definition of talent that can be applied to the subject we're discussing.

I would also be interested on how you determined its credibility.

The same way you determined the credibility of MSN Encarta, except this one has references and pro's and con's...

 

[Vance Wood]

Has anyone here seen the seed a Red Wood Tree produces?.. If not, and for your information it is very small and insignificant. When one sees one of these wonders it is amazing that the species has survived as long as it has, not to mention its ability to produce such a large off spring. My point is that talent is very often like a seed. It starts out small, it germinates and then grows; some very fast some very slow, some grow small and some very large. Some have very long life spans and others flash in the pan.

In the field of sales as Will has mentioned in his reference to finding talented people, In that context we are not really looking for talent, but motivation and pragmatism. But it does bring up an interesting point that talent can sometimes be defined differently within different disciplines of endeavour.

 

[Rick Moquin]

Well after 11 pages it's time for a knuckle ball

The human brain comprises 2 hemispheres, X and Y. One is creativity the other logical process. I no longer remember which is which, but the creative side is very much the dominant hemisphere for those who aspire to great things artistically. Whilst the logical part is capable of deciphering great processes and skills into an object.

Those who have an x/y brain, eg no dominant side have an advantage over those with single hemisphere thought processes.

The majority of the folks debating this subject here are male, and it would be a good point to remember that males can only access either hemisphere at any given time, whilst the female of the species can access both whenever they feel like it. So there you go with your male egos LOL

 

[irene_b]

Well after 11 pages it's time for a knuckle ball

The human brain comprises 2 hemispheres, X and Y. One is creativity the other logical process. I no longer remember which is which, but the creative side is very much the dominant hemisphere for those who aspire to great things artistically. Whilst the logical part is capable of deciphering great processes and skills into an object.

Those who have an x/y brain, eg no dominant side have an advantage over those with single hemisphere thought processes.

The majority of the folks debating this subject here are male, and it would be a good point to remember that males can only access either hemisphere at any given time, whilst the female of the species can access both whenever they feel like it. So there you go with your male egos LOL

LOL Thank You Very Much for that one Rick!
Mom

 

[irene_b]

I can see this leading into a full length book.
The X vs Y.
As well as the Male Artist vs Female Artist.
Just remember boys.....;o
Mom loves you all.
Mom

 

[Rick Moquin]

LOL Thank You Very Much for that one Rick!
Mom

Just for U mom

Oops and Dorothy

 

[Anonymous User]

I'm not a boy and my mother still thinks computers are the work of the devil.

The majority of the folks debating this subject here are male because the majority of the practitioners of bonsai are male. Richard Fish once called it in an article, "The Gentleman's Club" and some discussion went into why this is. Although unexpectedly a woman did receive the award for best North American bonsai in the recent North America vs Europe contest at AoB.

It is the right side of the brain that is the creative side[/URL], but it is not solely responsible for talent. Albert Einstein for example was no doubt talented, but his talent crossed the brain borders as his left side was gifted with logic and the ability to process advanced mathematics, while his right side allowed him to think outside of the box.



Will

 

[irene_b]

I'm not a boy and my mother still thinks computers are the work of the devil.

The majority of the folks debating this subject here are male because the majority of the practitioners of bonsai are male. Richard Fish once called it in an article, "The Gentleman's Club" and some discussion went into why this is. Although unexpectedly a woman did receive the award for best North American bonsai in the recent North America vs Europe contest at AoB.

It is the right side of the brain that is the creative side[/URL], but it is not solely responsible for talent. Albert Einstein for example was no doubt talented, but his talent crossed the brain borders as his left side was gifted with logic and the ability to process advanced mathematics, while his right side allowed him to think outside of the box.
Will







Yet despite his many talents he could never master tying his shoes.
Mom

 

[Smoke]

Don't worry Al, it's not contagious.


Have fun,


Will

Yikes? I have given the wrong impression here.

first I had a wonderful time thank you! The trees were marvelous as usual, and I met up with many old friends.

I hope I didn't give an impression that I didn't feel that talent exists. Oh I truely believe it does. I just feel it is a moving target. It can be improved and it can diminish over time. True by some of the means you mentioned, but we are humans and we have to consider that over time we will not be able to accomplish what we could while we were young.

Consider this.... I wonder why most labels we use in bonsai must come from a second party. The Master never considers oneself as a master nor a teacher or a artist, much less talented. Most people just feel they are skilled at something. Words like talented, artist, Master, and Professor, etc. etc. are terms that seem to be used by peple in awe of these people. Talented people could care less what you call them as long as it's not late for dinner!

Photo's coming soon as well as some classroom photo's for review and a special surprise for Will Heath.

( now I have his attention )

 

[anttal63]

great discussion

let me firstly say a congratulations to chris for a great discussion, this is the stuff depth and substance comes out of. secondly to say well done to all contributions for they all have merrit. last and definately not least a right on for ricks post on x vs. y, for this connects deeply with me. how ever there is a third dimension involved for me lets call it z. THE SOUL. i dont neccessarily mean that to point to religion, spirituality, or just that emotion/ thing deep in your gut. it is what it is for you. we are all born with it. i do believe that when we are in touch with it or have this xyz in alignment and balance then from this talent is born. but as said before without education and application and commitment your talent is limited. just my 2 bob.

 

[Chris Johnston]

Quote:
Originally Posted by bwaynef
To be clear, the conclusion drawn was NOT that talent is inborn. The conclusion drawn was that most people are confused by the nuances of skill and talent. BOLDLY unsupported

I think the posts here in this thread supports the conclusion very well.

Will

Will, the point Wayne made, and it was a correct one, was that your syllogism involved a non sequitur and the conclusion you drew thereby was not supported.

As to what this thread supports, perhaps it would be better served if you would actually argue a point instead of quoting dictionaries and repeating yourself while insisting that others are confused by the "nuances" of skill and talent.

Personally, I don't think Al is confused. Neither is Attila. Both are very sure of their positions. At least they have claimed a position and stood on it.

 

[Chris Johnston]

Good examples used here. Based on Al's beliefs, anyone can be the next Mozart or Beethoven if they just practice long and hard enough. The fact is that there are pianists in the world now who can play every note ever written by these two musicians quite well with technically flawless precision. Well enough to earn a living at it, well enough to have gain some fame and recognition for it, well enough to even be called talented. I would certainly say they have practiced and worked hard.

So where are their original pieces? Why are they not being hailed as being gifted and as being composers on the level of Mozart or Beethoven? Because they have all the skills and all the techniques of these great men, they just don't have the talent these men did.

Orli Shaham, on the other hand, may be a different story, having received her first scholarship for musical study from the America-Israel Cultural Foundation at the age of five, and presently acclaimed for her precision and technique, she is still young enough to do great things. I expect to see a lot out of her in the future, but that is another story.


Will

Daily trivia: Both Mozart and Beethoven first musical instructors were their fathers.

Interesting points. What is more interesting is that Tiger Woods' first coach was his father as well. Could it be that many of those we consider "talented" were actually groomed from an early age, born into a milieu that encouraged a particular direction in life, then coached by parents and perhaps pushed to achieve? And what has that done to these talented people in life? We know the story of Mozart. And Britney Spears seems and interesting example along the same lines. Argue whether she is talented or not, she could sing and dance.

 

[Chris Johnston]

In the field of sales as Will has mentioned in his reference to finding talented people, In that context we are not really looking for talent, but motivation and pragmatism. But it does bring up an interesting point that talent can sometimes be defined differently within different disciplines of endeavour.

This is an important point. I have seen many people that I considered talented salespeople. But what they had was not some inborn trait, what they had was an enjoyment of people, and a positivie attitude, and a commitment to following through.

 

[Chris Johnston]

Yikes? I have given the wrong impression here.

first I had a wonderful time thank you! The trees were marvelous as usual, and I met up with many old friends.

I hope I didn't give an impression that I didn't feel that talent exists. Oh I truely believe it does. I just feel it is a moving target. It can be improved and it can diminish over time. True by some of the means you mentioned, but we are humans and we have to consider that over time we will not be able to accomplish what we could while we were young.

Consider this.... I wonder why most labels we use in bonsai must come from a second party. The Master never considers oneself as a master nor a teacher or a artist, much less talented. Most people just feel they are skilled at something. Words like talented, artist, Master, and Professor, etc. etc. are terms that seem to be used by peple in awe of these people. Talented people could care less what you call them as long as it's not late for dinner!

Photo's coming soon as well as some classroom photo's for review and a special surprise for Will Heath.

( now I have his attention )

It is interesting, isn't it, how our view of others' skill changes with time. The folks I look at now as talented or highly skilled has changed as my own skills have improved. And for the most part, I would not insist that it's 100%, artists don't toot their own horns so much, they are promoted by others.

Kimura doesn't need to make headlines saying how great he is, or even put others down. He just does what he does and the results are there for anyone to see.

 

[Chris Johnston]

let me firstly say a congratulations to chris for a great discussion, this is the stuff depth and substance comes out of. secondly to say well done to all contributions for they all have merrit. last and definately not least a right on for ricks post on x vs. y, for this connects deeply with me. how ever there is a third dimension involved for me lets call it z. THE SOUL. i dont neccessarily mean that to point to religion, spirituality, or just that emotion/ thing deep in your gut. it is what it is for you. we are all born with it. i do believe that when we are in touch with it or have this xyz in alignment and balance then from this talent is born. but as said before without education and application and commitment your talent is limited. just my 2 bob.

Anttal, perhaps you are coming closer to any to the real discussion we are having. After re-reading the entire thread, I am preparing to start another closely allied thread but with a finer point.

 

[Chris Johnston]

Now it's my turn to thank everyone who gave thoughtful and passionately defended viewpoints. This has been the best discussion I have seen here at the Nut and I have been challenged and given plenty to think about. What a pleasure this has been!

 

[Anonymous User]

As to what this thread supports, perhaps it would be better served if you would actually argue a point instead of quoting dictionaries and repeating yourself while insisting that others are confused by the "nuances" of skill and talent.

Chris, the debate would indeed be better served if you read all the posts before making blanket assumptions, the point I was arguing was that one is born with talent, it is not acquired. I used widely accepted definitions of "talent" to support my arguments. Al insists that talent is acquired, but talent is not acquired, skill is, hence my statement that he confuses the terms.

There were some excellent thoughts put forth by Attila and a few others, I did enjoy reading those, they actually added to the discussion and gave us something to chew on. I apologize, I thought this was going to be a real discussion based on actual facts and not opinions or feelings. My bad, I assume too much.


Will

 

[irene_b]

Chris it has been very interesting to date and I am very sure that the topic has not been concluded.
As you I prefer to see what the individual thinks and feels more than what is the formally accepted by the masses ie the dictonary. In order for change to occur folks have to be willing to break from old habits. I have enjoyed this very much, Thank You.
I am reminded of an old saying that I feel applies to you.
Lead, Follow but get the hell out of my way!
Mom

 

[Chris Johnston]

Chris, the debate would indeed be better served if you read all the posts before making blanket assumptions, the point I was arguing was that one is born with talent, it is not acquired. I used widely accepted definitions of "talent" to support my arguments. Al insists that talent is acquired, but talent is not acquired, skill is, hence my statement that he confuses the terms.

There were some excellent thoughts put forth by Attila and a few others, I did enjoy reading those, they actually added to the discussion and gave us something to chew on. I apologize, I thought this was going to be a real discussion based on actual facts and not opinions or feelings. My bad, I assume too much.


Will

Will, unless you have some facts to share, I don't think your dictionary definitions have been refuted or even disputed. But your arguments have left something to be desired. Repeating the same foundational statements does not make your argument stronger no matter how forcefully you put them or how differently you approach them.

You are holding back because you are writing an article, which is fine, I suppose. Will you make assertions there only? Or is your only point and conclusion that talent is inborn? That seems like a great waste of time and effort.

If you are going to make a point of using fact and logic, it only makes sense to present your facts, draw your conclusions, and then defend them. That is the way these things are done. But we all know there is something you are not finishing here.