What is the cost of a "World Class Bonsai"?

[Smoke]

Way to go Will, you get us all off track by bringing AofB into it and then you know I will stray off track to debate it, then we all get in trouble. Reminds me of a lady many years ago with a ruler....

man my knuckles hurt...
ak

 

[Anonymous User]

...man my knuckles hurt...

Mine too, I am hoping they will callous eventually, lol.

Nice equation, Will, but I'd also add the variable of "time" to it.

Ah yes, that hated slayer of instant gratification.



Will

 

[Walter Pall]

Are you telling me you have problems in picking out the best trees in the groups you recieve? Come on, I suspect that most nearly anyone here could pick the best trees from a group. Not everyone will always pick the same group in the same order but I suspect that they might all pick the same group, just not in the same order.

Of course, every bonsai enthusiast with minimal experiece can tell you what he thinbks is good and what is bad. Anybody can make a choice about what he thinks is best. Anybody can make a choice of what he thinks are world class trees.

But it does not matter. It makes no impact, as long as the person is not one of the powers to be. What exactly would be the powers to be in bonsai? Well, the folks who decide about general bonsai taste, about trends about who is a big name and who is not. A rather small group of people are the powers to be in bonsai, as they are in every art form. This is absolutely not a democratic game, this is pure dictatorship. And it has to be! So I smile every time I hear that such an such is ABUSING his power, that such and such (usually Will) is an eltitist jerk and that they all don't listen to the common folks who know so much more. Well, it is the other way round: the common folks have to listen to them, whether they like it or not. They hate it indeed. This is understandable in a world that puts the highest value onto democracy. And the decison about art or not art is not democratic at all!!!

Who exactly are these most influential people? Magazine editiors who decide what articles by whom get into the magazines, what picture will be placed where. Convention organizers who decide who will speak and who will not, in what order, prime time or not. They will decide which trees go where, which trees will be invited and which not. Club officials who will decide about coming year's program. Organnizers of contests making the rules, deciding about judges. Judges of judged events. Let's face it, AoB editorial staff (much more democratic inside than you think) is part of that game. And there are a fw more.

And only then come peers. Well, peers are in a good position to judge what other peers ar doing or not doing. But peers most often are not in the group of powers to be. But powers to be also need someone to listen to. And this is when peers come in.

And where are common folks? Where is this mass of very smart folks on the internet, who know it all? They are not part of that game. They are like spectators of a football game. They can scream,yell, get drunk, commit suicide, but they cannot influence the game. They can only hate it or love it. They can well hate the powers to be. And they sure do. But it does not matter.

Amen

 

[Bonsai Nut]

They are like spectators of a football game. They can scream,yell, get drunk, commit suicide, but they cannot influence the game.

Walter goes to some TOUGH football games

 

[agraham]

He's European......that's what they do at soccer games .

andy

 

[Behr]

But it does not matter. It makes no impact, as long as the person is not one of the powers to be. What exactly would be the powers to be in bonsai? Well, the folks who decide about general bonsai taste, about trends about who is a big name and who is not. A rather small group of people are the powers to be in bonsai, as they are in every art form. This is absolutely not a democratic game, this is pure dictatorship..........And the decison about art or not art is not democratic at all!!!

And, that folks is the way it is in the real world of bonsai, or art, or most anything else we encounter on a daily basis...

If there IS an answer to any of these questions then the "cost" of a "World Class Bonsai" is phenomenal, because one must also factor in the cost of promoting the artist or tree with the proper "political entities" of bonsai...That my friend is most likely to be the highest cost factor involved here...

And, back to a previous statement...It really does not make a difference what any of us consider to be a "World Class Bonsai" unless we are in that group Mr. Walter refers to as "the powers to be"...And, yes it does take huge sums of money to influence this group...Such is the way of the world...Not any of us are likely to change this...Our best hope is to learn to do as some have in the past...Learn to work with it...

Regards
Behr

 

[Anonymous User]

And where are common folks? Where is this mass of very smart folks on the internet, who know it all? They are not part of that game. They are like spectators of a football game. They can scream,yell, get drunk, commit suicide, but they cannot influence the game. They can only hate it or love it. They can well hate the powers to be. And they sure do. But it does not matter.

Amen

Amen.




Will

 

[agraham]

And then there are the inevitable groupies......who contribute in their own way .

I have to disagree with you Walter.We are ALL part of the game.As one of the great unwashed mass of little people,I can't think of any of the "powers that be" that I hate.In general,I have great respect for those who have climbed the ladder.

It takes a lot of work and dedication.It takes putting yourself out there for criticism.In most cases it takes great skill.In some cases it just takes determination and self promotion.Good luck is always a good thing.As Behr mentioned...the means to be relentless in pursuit of excellence helps,but self sacrifice can take the place of money,and I'm sure that in many if not most cases it has.We all have made decisions on which direction to take our lives.

As far as determining what is "world class" or not,individuals don't.As hard as you've tried to make the "naturalistic" style the benchmark....it hasn't happened.As far as editors deciding what trees to put in their magazines...don't think for a minute that they aren't taking into consideration what the little people want to see.As far as club presidents and boards..they are elected.

As far as Will..hehe....nah...we don't want to have this thread turn personal .Let's say that I have respect for the part he has played in developing AOB and KOB.And,I respect his obvious enthusiasm for bonsai.As is obvious in the lengthy threads concerning world class bonsai and nursery material....I disagree with many of his opinions.I also think that his lack of demonstrable bonsai skill takes away from the weight of said opinions.So,while you may and he may,consider him to be one of the "powers that be", his opinion is of much less import to me than one of my "peers",whoever the hell they are.....but I don't hate him .btw Will,I've been anxiously awaiting the gallery of the All Michigan show on KOB....and ofcourse your professional debut.Especially the Ficus "Green Island" mame workshop.Pretty expensive nursery stock....

andy

 

[Rick Moquin]

...interesting

Amen

 

[Chris Johnston]

This is an interesting turn to this thread, I think. I understand your point, Walter, and follow to an extent, however, let's not confuse magazine editors and forum editors with "powers-that-be." Many are "powers that wanna-be." This ties in closely with the ludicrous notion that something that is not art becomes art by being displayed in a prestigious art setting. Nonsense! The editors do not decide what is a world-class tree, they decide what will be displayed on their website or magazine, no more and no less. And that can often have as much to do with politics as with the tree quality.

It sounds like local club politics writ large, to me.

 

[No it's not...]

"This ties in closely with the ludicrous notion that something that is not art becomes art by being displayed in a prestigious art setting. Nonsense!"

Like the works of Marcel Duchamp? Art is most definetly contextual, and hence subject to hegemonies http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hegemonic

 

[Chris Johnston]

"This ties in closely with the ludicrous notion that something that is not art becomes art by being displayed in a prestigious art setting. Nonsense!"

Like the works of Marcel Duchamp? Art is most definetly contextual, and hence subject to hegemonies http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hegemonic

I'm not sure exactly your point or how hegemony ties in to art. But I'm sorry I made the analogy, we don't want to hijack the thread.

 

[Anonymous User]

I also think that his lack of demonstrable bonsai skill takes away from the weight of said opinions.

Wow, have you seen my trees? And here I thought Vance Wood was the only person who has walked through my back yard from the forums.

For the record, once again, I have posted pictures of some of the trees I work on, on this forum and others, some are well on their way, others are not, so is the life of a bonsaist. As to not carrying weight, please feel free to debate my opinions, articles, editorials at any time, I'll read your words, weigh them carefully, and debate them intelligently and without personal insult if I feel debate is needed. I certainly won't critique your trees to try and prove your words wrong.

The fact that someone doesn't have world class trees no more makes them automatically wrong then the fact that someone has world class trees makes them automatically right. This is flawed logic and is often used as a sorry excuse when the actual subject matter can not be debated.

Seriously, should I say that since you have not created a world class tree, then your words are meaningless? If we follow that logic (as is often presented against me) 99% of this whole forum membership can just shut up.

Will,I've been anxiously awaiting the gallery of the All Michigan show on KOB....and of course your professional debut.Especially the Ficus "Green Island" mame workshop.Pretty expensive nursery stock....

Ah yes, not my first workshops, but the first I accepted money for. I am assuming that you have seen the stock then, since I doubt you would make a judgment call on the price for stock you haven't seen....one inch wide trunks on four inch high trees, the stock was fantastic and the resulting bonsai were decent as well.

The nice thing about Myers Gardens is that they have all participants fill out evaluations after the demos, workshops, or classes. I like this idea, it helps to determine who will be invited back based on the participants themselves. I was lucky enough to get good evaluations from the participants in both workshops I gave.

Thank you for asking,


Will

 

[agraham]

Will,

I,too, could say,or imply that I have better trees than what I've posted in various forums,but in truth....I don't think I do.Walter brought your name into this thread as an example,not me.I could use my own name in place of yours....I think the quality of my(andy's) work on trees diminishes the value of my(andy's) opinion as to what is or isn't a world class tree.No big deal.But then,I haven't set myself up as an arbiter of quality.I can only say what I like and what I don't.And that is an opinion much less respected than the opinion of someone who has actually created and been lauded for his art on the world stage.Probably....as it should be.

Actually,I would be much more interested in discussing HOW to make my bonsai "world class"...as opposed to discussing who decides whether or not they are.Anytime I post a picture of one of my trees.....I welcome any suggestions and/or criticisms.Anytime,by anyone.I may or may not agree.....but differing viewpoints are always good.

As far as your workshop...I am genuinely curious as to how it turned out,as I am curious about most demos and workshops.Take it as a compliment that I knew about yours and inquired.The nursery stock and price question/statement is certainly legitimate.Even more so since you described the material.They sound more like prebonsai which is a good thing(imo).


andy

 

[Anonymous User]

Oh I never claimed, said, or implied my trees were good, better, worse, or on par, I just have trees, some collected, some not, time is on my side. I have nothing to prove to anyone but myself and I am a tougher critic than anyone here. I have posted some ficus, mugos, and other species, I believe even a cheap mugo right here on Bnut, but more will come someday.

Maybe.


Will

 

[Walter Pall]

Can you all please stop this utterly silly conversation?
Why in the world do people insist that someone who speaks about art has to be an artist. Why is it that people think that someone who decides about whether a tree is world class, whether a tree goes into a magzine, a gallery, or not, must prove his ability to create one himslef? The world is full of art gallerists , of museum directors, of art magazine editors who could not create a piece of art for their life.
It is absolutely not necessary to show good trees for anyone to be taken serious in discussions about bonsai art. It is absolutely not necessary for a bonsai judge to be able to create great bonsai himself.
This silly discussion only proves again how many people are in bonsai who have no clue about the art world.

 

[agraham]

Can you all please stop this utterly silly conversation?
Why in the world do people insist that someone who speaks about art has to be an artist. Why is it that people think that someone who decides about whether a tree is world class, whether a tree goes into a magzine, a gallery, or not, must prove his ability to create one himslef.

No one has said such a thing. .

andy

 

[Rick Moquin]

Can you all please stop this utterly silly conversation?
Why in the world do people insist that someone who speaks about art has to be an artist. Why is it that people think that someone who decides about whether a tree is world class, whether a tree goes into a magzine, a gallery, or not, must prove his ability to create one himslef? The world is full of art gallerists , of museum directors, of art magazine editors who could not create a piece of art for their life.
It is absolutely not necessary to show good trees for anyone to be taken serious in discussions about bonsai art. It is absolutely not necessary for a bonsai judge to be able to create great bonsai himself.
This silly discussion only proves again how many people are in bonsai who have no clue about the art world.

Interesting observation Walter. However I would be remiss if I didn't make the following observation.

If it looks like a duck, and quacks like a duck, it's probably a duck. Whilst I found interesting your observation about the common folk in a previous post, I can't in all honesty condone it, but as you say "This does not matter".

The silliness that trangresses at times usually occurs around common denominators. Just because you rub elbows with the powers to be, does not in any way increase your credentials. You may not need to be an artist to appreciate art, nor do you need to create art to appreciate it. However, if you profess a certain degree of knowledge in a chosen field, then you should bring your credentials at the discussion table and have them validated, not unlike yourself.

Unfortunately, Will has made several mistakes in the past, on the "bonsai scene" that have tarnished both his integrity and credibility. His passion and vision for this artform, not to mention his dedication towards promoting its future, via the work he has done are admirable. However, no "one" has tarnished his reputation, Will must bare sole responsibility for his actions. Although, folks have tried to persecute his transgressions, both Will and the community need to put this behind them and move on. The silly charade which transpires at times, with or without his sollicited participation, does not increase ones credibility. Character flaws can only be corrected by changing ones behaviour, and in doing so re-establish ones credibility, once ones integrity is up to par iaw his peers.

The opinion of a common folk, but that doesn't matter.

 

[Smoke]

Can you all please stop this utterly silly conversation?

I guess one can always ask...

 

[Chris Johnston]

Can you all please stop this utterly silly conversation?
Why in the world do people insist that someone who speaks about art has to be an artist. Why is it that people think that someone who decides about whether a tree is world class, whether a tree goes into a magzine, a gallery, or not, must prove his ability to create one himslef? The world is full of art gallerists , of museum directors, of art magazine editors who could not create a piece of art for their life.
It is absolutely not necessary to show good trees for anyone to be taken serious in discussions about bonsai art. It is absolutely not necessary for a bonsai judge to be able to create great bonsai himself.
This silly discussion only proves again how many people are in bonsai who have no clue about the art world.

Oh. My. God. This must be where critics come from!