Black pine from seed

Shrimpaku

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I couldn't decide whether to put this in "Black Pines" or "Propogating" so here it is :)

This is probably the best guide I have ever seen on how to grow black pine from seeds. Great photos and great descriptions. If you can't grow Black Pines after this then you must be me :)

The original article was in Spanish by José Acuña, from 'Centro de Bonsai Tenerife'. See this fine article here.
 

zelk

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i have read that article, very usefull, i will use it this coming spring on about 100 scotts pine seeds that i am stratifiying right now. thanks i lost the link to it
 

Tachigi

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JBP Article

And after you get your seedlings started, here is a good article one the next steps:

http://www.members.aol.com/okamigardens/Articles/DevelopingPines.htm

-Darrell
Darrell.... I would take this article with a grain of salt. There are more than a few mistatements. For example, this person claims that JBP do not back bud on old wood. I can tell you that the 20 I have in my growing ground that are in development all back bud on old wood. Thats what JBP do if there stimulated to do so. I am not invalidating what this guy said. Only suggesting that you need to pick and choose the content for whats valid. If you want a great article on developing JBP read the article in Bonsai Europe, December issue. They are developing these JBP for shohin trees, but it could be taken the next step for larger trees. The theory is all the same.:)
 

darrellw

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Darrell.... I would take this article with a grain of salt. There are more than a few mistatements. For example, this person claims that JBP do not back bud on old wood. I can tell you that the 20 I have in my growing ground that are in development all back bud on old wood. Thats what JBP do if there stimulated to do so. I am not invalidating what this guy said. Only suggesting that you need to pick and choose the content for whats valid. If you want a great article on developing JBP read the article in Bonsai Europe, December issue. They are developing these JBP for shohin trees, but it could be taken the next step for larger trees. The theory is all the same.:)
Hi Tom,

Certainly, almost anything on the internet needs a bit of salt :)

It's been a while since I completly read the article, so I guess I missed the statment about back budding. Like you say, if treated properly you can get back budding on wood up to about 10 years old, though they don't react like many decidious trees, where you can basically throw out all the branches and start again from a bare trunk.

There is some good information on developing seedlings into stock in there, however. Two other great references are the black pine articles on the Evergreen Gardenworks site:

http://www.evergreengardenworks.com/pines.htm
http://www.evergreengardenworks.com/pines2.htm

As well as Brent Walston's "Bonsai Nurseryman" blog (he's the owner of Evergreen Gardenworks):

http://bonsainurseryman.typepad.com/bonsainurseryman/

You will need to read back through the older blogs to find all the articles.

-Darrell
 

Gnome

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Last year I bought the Bonsai Today Pines book (a valuable resource for those interested in Pines) and was inspired to try my hand at growing pines from seed. Last fall I collected cones from what I believe to be a Scots Pine. The first picture shows the newly sprouted seeds on April 22. Despite a fairly free draining mix and careful watering I lost a fair amount to what I assume to be damping off.

When it was time to pot up I cut the roots as described in the book. For those of you not familiar with this technique it involves removing the seedlings tap root and then handling them as cuttings. This is done in order to begin the process of establishing a good radial nebari.

At this point I had 52 seedlings in 2 1/4" square pots. Some of course did not survive the root cutting and after they had settled down I had 36 nice little trees, almost 70% survival. I fed them about every 10 days with 20-20-20 water soluble fertilizer. I also used homemade fertilizer cakes.

The second picture shows the seedlings on October 07. I lost a 6 more due to some squirrels or chipmunks taking a liking to them. All in all I am pleased with my first attempt and plan to start a batch of Black Pines next spring.


Norm
 

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Tachigi

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Gnome....You should feel pleased. I wonder....is there a great American master piece in them there pots?
 

Gnome

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Tom,

Thanks for your encouragement. Since I have had very poor results with transplanted Pines I thought that I would give this a shot. Brent Walston says somewhere in his writings that it seems to take about 50 years to produce a truly fine Pine. I don't think I have that much time left but I will try to get them off to a good start.

Does anyone know about the differences between Japanese Black Pines and Scots Pines? In particular I am concerned with the candling technique described for Black Pines. Is this appropriate for this species? Thanks.

Norm
 

Graydon

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Norm

Those are some sweet little pines you have started. You are doing something right. Please keep us updated as to the progress on these little guys. Am I correct that the time between the sprouting and the shot in the little pots is about 6 months?
 

Bonsai Nut

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Last fall I collected cones from what I believe to be a Scots Pine.
Hey Gnome;

Did you collect the cones off a tree or from the ground? How did you separate the seeds from the cones?
 

Gnome

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Graydon,

Am I correct that the time between the sprouting and the shot in the little pots is about 6 months?
Yes, Just about 5 1/2 months between the photos. Thanks for the kind words.

B.N.

Did you collect the cones off a tree or from the ground? How did you separate the seeds from the cones?
I pretty much followed the article in the book i cited. If you have not acquired it yet the procedure is as follows. The previous fall (2005) I collected closed, green cones directly from the tree. I soaked them in a fungicide solution (Daconil) overnight. Then they were dried until they began to open naturally over the winter. I did not perform any stratification. When planting time arrived I soaked the seeds overnight, the viable seeds sink, the rest were discarded.

Norm
 

Graydon

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Yes, Just about 5 1/2 months between the photos. Thanks for the kind words.
Thanks. So answer me a couple of things if you would be so kind. I too have the Pine book and have recently treated some sprouted seeds (pinus thunbergii) as cuttings like you did and as per the book.

What strength hormone did you use?

How long was the recovery before they put on more growth?

I have a flat that I cut and several flats that I left uncut. The uncut ones are growing fine but the cut ones are just sitting there, still green. I did get anxious and gently pulled one out - it did have the start of new roots! I am keeping them in the shade until it's safe to expose them to full sun but I don't know how long that may be.

I'll try to shoot a few shots and post them if I can get some daylight time to do so. Nothing as nice as what you have going...
 

Gnome

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Graydon,

I used "TakeRoot" by Schultz. A talc based hormone that has a strength of 0.1% IBA. In checking my notes I find that I did not record any specific length of time but there was a definite lag in growth during which time I lost about 30% of the seedlings.

I will be interested in hearing your observations, regarding the difference between the cut and un-cut individuals, when you re-pot. In your climate, I would not be surprised if you catch up and surpass what I have accomplished. How do Pines do in your area?

On separate note, when reviewing my notes I found no mention of soaking the seeds to separate them as I stated above. Must have been a different batch of seeds that I had in mind when I wrote the previous post. My apologies for the confusion.

Norm
 

Graydon

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Graydon,

I used "TakeRoot" by Schultz. A talc based hormone that has a strength of 0.1% IBA. In checking my notes I find that I did not record any specific length of time but there was a definite lag in growth during which time I lost about 30% of the seedlings.

I will be interested in hearing your observations, regarding the difference between the cut and un-cut individuals, when you re-pot. In your climate, I would not be surprised if you catch up and surpass what I have accomplished. How do Pines do in your area?

On separate note, when reviewing my notes I found no mention of soaking the seeds to separate them as I stated above. Must have been a different batch of seeds that I had in mind when I wrote the previous post. My apologies for the confusion.

Norm
Thanks again Norm. I used a similar strength hormone. I looked at them yesterday and had lost one (lost as in gone - must have blown away) but the others are bright green and happy. They are in the shade with mist. I have considered adding bottom heat as I have been told this will help cuttings root better/faster to avoid rot.

Pines do great down here. Well, black pines and red pines. We started some virginia pines from liners a few weeks ago to see how they will do.

My flats are trays of 18 pots, the pots are 2 3/4 I think. I have those 17 that I cut and rooted, 1 flat that I trimmed the roots almost off and then 2 other flats of uncut seedlings.

Everything was started in a small grain akadama, pumice and very coarse sand mix.

I'll try to get some photos this weekend as well.
 

Gnome

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Graydon,

I'll try to get some photos this weekend as well.
I look forward to seeing them. Are you a subscriber to Bonsai Today? There is an article, a reprint I believe, detailing the process of pines from seed.

Norm
 

Bonsai Nut

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Graydon,
Are you a subscriber to Bonsai Today? There is an article, a reprint I believe, detailing the process of pines from seed.
There are several, actually. My favorite was way back in issue #20 where they had the guy who raised black pines in colanders. I think the article (and several others) are reprinted in their "Black Pine" book (Stone Lantern Publishing). I have asked for a copy for Christmas so I can't tell you what's in it yet :)
 

Gnome

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B.N.

Sorry I wasn't more clear. There is an article on pines in the current issue. And yes, the B.T. book does describe the use of colanders. First singly then later, doubled up. By the way, the binding on my copy failed after relatively little use.

Norm
 

rlist

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Call Stone Lantern about the Pine book. It is a semi-common problem with some earlier ones, and they will replace it.
 

JasonG

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Rich is right.... My copy came unbound after a few times of thumbing through it. I called Stone Lantern and they got me out a new copy right away. They are good folks with good customer service... Give them a call...

Jason
 

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